Becoming and Arborist

[lxt]

Right!

The ISA is just loaded up with CA that have their masters degree in arboriculture. Not!

The sad fact is most have very little experience......sometimes as little as just working at Home Depot in the garden center! Sometimes no experience at all.

I've had my CA for 17 or 18 years now and have been a climber for 23 years.

My opinion is that the isa has been very successful marketing the CA designation...and now has moved into 3, 4, or 5 other designations....and that my CA is really worth very little today.

Now here is a CA I respect, M.D you could take a lesson from TreeCo.!!
Not just because he climbs or is a CA, but because he as well as some Climbing CA`s I know feel what they have worked(climbed) & studied for has been diluted by the other designations & honestly people like you!!

LXT..........

 

[lxt]

It doesn't really matter. That's for the astronauts to figure out.

As far as arborists, an experienced arborist is an experienced arborist, and that's based on hands-on tree care and knowledge. Gear and size of tree is not relevant to determining what they are. Now if there are "certified arborists" who have minimal experiences, certainly they will be less adept than the CA with 20 years constant hands-on. But even the entry level CAs have 3 years. And I'll skip including the odds and ends for the moment who may have borderline tree care 3 years.

On another note, if a climber comes down to work on the smaller trees, odds are I can prune circles around that person.

One CA - a very experienced climber - who worked in Georgia for a long time, and in Oregon for a long time, as arborist, climber and business owner, said that my pruning work is the best he had ever seen.

Basically, you blow it out of proportion. I've got over a dozen trees on my own property including 200 year oaks, Douglas fir, madrone, ponderosa pine. And I can look out my window right now and see most of what they need.

And I can go into town tomorrow and get a lift or climbing gear and do to my big trees what I do to my small trees, but within the confines of what age and condition allows.

I can see a few codominant unions, even from the ground I can tell from the bark what's alive and what's not. Dead stubs stick out like a sore thumb, and 20% of the canopy is equally as easy to judge from the ground as it is from above.

In addition, I know how to avoid damaging the bark with ropes and gear, what time of year the bark is more likely to slip-loose.

My plan may change once up in the tree, but where the ropes will be placed is already fairly obvious.

So you need to put your foolishness to rest.

I'm not going to tell you or other skilled climbers how to use your gear, but it will be a cold day in hell if you climbing makes you more capable to handle tree care. Because although I may not accomplish the task identically in equipment terms, I can meet or or exceed the quality of finished product.

Been there - done that.

The reason I was looking at my trees today, is I was out in the rainstorm taking some Madrone photos for Ekka's website. And glancing at our large trees and noticing a few needs in them, comments like yours came to mind and I amusingly chuckled. Especially since most arborists I know, don't usually climb to give an estimate, but they can see most issues from below. And anything that can be hidden up in a canopy, has occured at head level as well. Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level. Even with big trees, the same issues can occur down low.

What makes a good arborist, is being an experienced arborist.

Because if you need climbing gear in big trees to be a good arborist, obviously one might need an orchard ladder and boots for small trees to be a good arborist. See, if you want to be logical, you have to expand your logic to all aspects and all sizes, as closely as possible. And your form of logic is not logical enough to handle the full scope of arboriculture.

You are funny!! you use analogies to describe...thats ok! but when someone else does "astronaut" then it will be figured out by another means Uhh?

some CA`s dont have 3yrs, secretaries, home Depot lawn & garden employees to name a few, this has been explained!!...you just choose to ignore it!! I would too if I were you!

come down to prune smaller trees!! whats the difference? other than size & specie, the technique for the most part is the same!! orchard ladder, around here you wouldnt make a dime my man......cause all the grass cutters do those trees........I get stuck with the big & the ugly!!

A cold day in hell, LOL..........again go to the employment section they need lots of orchard ladder trimmers over there. Put it like this climbing is the meat & potatoes of the industry!! like it or not....without us who have the ability to climb you Non-climbing CA`s would look funny explaining to the Home owner, yes maam that limb looks bad, possibly broke over in the storm, Can you fix? well no maam..........I can tell this from the ground cause Im a CA, I cant climb!!

whats equipment terms? were talking climbing skill M.D...you think you can out prune me in a small tree? tell ya what come up to PA we`ll go do the 80-90ft sugar maple that had severe failure in a storm, then were going to go do a small N. maple prune.....cause I wanna see you meet or exceed!!

your posts show the work of what grass cutters & roofers do in my area so not being cruel but it dont impress me!! I dont need pic`s Ill extend the offer & show you in person, Ill even rent you a room in the hotel of your choice!!

Ill be logical, Ill prove Im worth my salt & in the end Ill see if your alligator mouth, dillusional thought process & skill are what you say!!

It will be a cold day in hell when a non-climbing CA will out prune me

come get some!! bring your camera too I want all arboristsite to see!!

LXT...............

 

[clearance]

We interrupt this rant for a 4th time to clarify a misimpression. 3 years' experience in tree work is required; it need not be under, over or next to a CA.

lxt, posting pictures is as easy as pie. Let's talk about how to cable that ash.

This thread is dead.

:deadhorse:

It is not a rant, it is a discussion, me and the other tree men are explaining the truth, along with our opinions. You are a true "true believer", immune to us, except your concurance with my idea that non working arborists should get off thier lazy azz and plant a few trees every day.

Now you say it takes three years of experience in treework to become an arborist. "Treework", sorry buddy, thats a little vague. Driving around in a city pickup, looking at trees, getting coffee, lying to residents about trees, that ain't work, its making puppies.

Running a saw, chipping brush, climbing trees, etc, now thats work. The city arborists I have dealt with wouldn't last a day doing treework, you can tell just by looking at them, never done a hard days work in thier life, couldn't even start a saw without decomp. The kind of people that would have starved to death in the pioneer days, culls, most of 'em.

 

[treeseer]

"In discussion, the climbing Certified Arborist claims that with his climbing knowledge, he's super-charged and 10 times smarter than the non-climber.

The non-climbing arborist shrewdly points out that his own Master's degree in arboriculture make him 5 times smarter than the climber.

Soon after, the homeowner asks a marvelous question of both arborists: "Gentlemen, either way, doesn't 10 x nothing = nothing?

Immediately, both arborists realized the homeowners wisdom, and that the whole time, they were equals. "

Zen client stills the futile furor. Wish it were that easy in real life.

"Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level."

Mario,if you'd ever been 80' in a tree, you'd not say this. Cankers, lightning hits, cracks and hollows can all be up there but not perceptible down low.

The sample report in the back of the ASCA writing guide involves some lazy assessment of aerial conditions, because the consultant did not climb. Poor work; the client pays to know about the whole tree, so aerial inspection is often vital.

The original poster asked about arborist certification, then it got derailed. Most of the last few pages have been about this certification's skill set:

ISA CERTIFIED TREE WORKER/CLIMBER SPECIALIST
ELIGIBILITY
Applicants must have 18 months of climbing experience. The
candidate must also show valid proof of training in aerial rescue, CPR,
and First Aid.
EXPERIENCE
Practical experience helpful in preparing for the knowledge and skills
exam will include full-time professional work which requires the
regular practical use of knowledge involved in climbing safety, tree
removal, rigging, pruning, cabling, climbing/knots, tree sciences, and
tree identification.
MEMBERSHIP
ISA Membership is not required to become an ISA Certified Tree
Worker, although members pay a discounted fee for exam registration,
recertification, study guide, and purchase of other educational
materials.
FEES
Examination
Members (ISA and Chapter)
= U.S. $ 100.00
Non-member
= U.S. $ 150.00
Retake
= U.S. $ 65.00
Recertification
Member
= U.S. $ 45.00
Non-member
= U.S. $ 60.00
EXAMINATION
Structure - The exam is made up of two parts, a 50- question, multiple-choice knowledge exam and a
skills exam. The individual must pass both to obtain the certification credential. The domains or subjects
covered are:
I.
Safety
14%
II.
Removal
14%
III.
Rigging
14%
IV.
Pruning
20%
V.
Cabling
6%
VI.
Climbing/Knots
14%
VII. Tree Sciences
8%
VIII. Tree Identification
10%
STUDY MATERIALS
Tree Climbers’ Guide, The Certified Tree Worker Climbing Skills Test- Application Preparation video,
ANSI Z133.1, ANSI A300, Basic Training for Tree Climbers video set, and the Tree Climbers’
Companion.

Dan how do you know how little your CA is worth? When you post it, as you do in your sig, it is seen by eyes other than yours. One thing is for sure; you'd never have gotten the Barlow job without it.

 

[oldirty]

takes about a decade to be considered a tradesman doesnt it? whats this 3 yr mark all about?

and your right clearance. for me to pass judgement about what it is you do i only need to shake your hand and look at them.

you can learn almost all you need in those 2 easy steps.


hey seer if this thread is dead at least it was a good one.

 

[lxt]

Treeseer, good post! I beleive you atleast pride your self in all facets of tree care!! seemingly a rare thing amongst some!

Be safe, Take care

LXT......

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Mario,if you'd ever been 80' in a tree, you'd not say this. Cankers, lightning hits, cracks and hollows can all be up there but not perceptible down low.

Did you pay attention to what I said? It doesn't sound like it. Sometimes I wish you could be as good at reading a reply as you are at lecturing and posting facts. You greatly amuse me sometimes. I remember one time on TB, where finally other arborists kept trying to tell you that you didn't read exactly what I wrote or somehow missed the obvious intent. I mean, I'm sure you don't intend to do that, but sometimes you do it so long, I practically slap my forehead in at this end. You are a funny guy Treeseer.

Sometimes I make a typo or two, but generally, I'm fairly exact at describing - hope so anyway. At least others say they read it the way I meant.

I basically said that anything that can happen above, can happen below. I'm even surprised that you wrote that response to me. That's just common trade knowledge. Of course some of those things can't be seen from the ground. Still doesn't erase that fact though that most estimates given - at least in Oregon - are done from ground level. Only a small percentage end up with a climber going up first.

And again, what occurs above, can occur below.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

You are funny!! you use analogies to describe...thats ok! but when someone else does "astronaut" then it will be figured out by another means Uhh?

some CA`s dont have 3yrs, secretaries, home Depot lawn & garden employees to name a few, this has been explained!!...you just choose to ignore it!! I would too if I were you!

Now there you go again...

I already covered it in the next sentence, and you couldn't figure it out?

Is it right that I should need to take you back to the next sentence of mine and requote myself?

But even the entry level CAs have 3 years. And I'll skip including the odds and ends for the moment who may have borderline tree care 3 years.

What's with you guys.

Even in the past couple of weeks I mentioned a local Landscape Architect who took the test and got his certification as a CA.

Now if we ever get to that pruning contest, I'm not going to let you escape by trying to get 100 feet up so nobody can see you loose buddy. We're going to start with tree planting first. Then we're going to do Bonsai second. Next, maybe we can do 1 or 2 miles of small street trees carrying our gear as we go. Then big fruit trees. Then we can start advancing bigger and bigger. From Roots to Shoots. That way the contest may end before it even leaves the ground.

And of course my photos don't have anything massive. I got my first digital camera only a month or so before I sold my 385 XP and other stuff, right at the point where I really bailed-out on big tree stuff. Just decided to take a turn in business. No more climbing gear for this kid.

Actually, I think the big reason for the switch, was I realized I just wasn't put-together very well physically to tackle it for very long. So it made sense to just turn the big stuff over to guys with the knack and the knowledge, and get myself established in a niche that I would not ever need to retire out of (and still be able to work in the field).

Really now, I respect you guys.

I can't climb near as well as most of you folks. It would take me light years to get half as good.

LOL

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Right!

The ISA is just loaded up with CA that have their masters degree in arboriculture. Not!

The sad fact is most have very little experience......sometimes as little as just working at Home Depot in the garden center! Sometimes no experience at all.

I've had my CA for 17 or 18 years now and have been a climber for 23 years.

My opinion is that the isa has been very successful marketing the CA designation...and now has moved into 3, 4, or 5 other designations....and that my CA is really worth very little today.

Now, I'm sure you knew it was humor.

If you didn't, get a beer and chill

So.... I can't share very much more detail than this very short description, so I don't disclose an identity or embarrass an institution.

Years, and years and years ago, while working at a university campus, a person with a very responsible position in the horticulture profession, and with a Masters degree, was temporarily working with us. To get some experience.

This person did not know how to use a shovel. So that was the first thing we taught them. There is a right way and a wrong way to use a shovel and say, move a small plant. But this person almost didn't know how to dig.

I wish I could share more, but I just can't.

So I understand exactly what you mean.

 

[treeseer]

most estimates given - at least in Oregon - are done from ground level.

But inspections often require climbing, as does an important part of the work.

Here's a chart with the different work descriptions an arborist can have. You can see climbing is in there, as are MANY other arborist jobs.

http://www.isa-arbor.com/careersInArboriculture/flowchrt.aspx

***

While pruning an 80' oak with a HUGE cracking hollow in the middle, I took some pictures for the client, who was also my groundie. Could I have handled the tree without book learning? No way.

It took him a long time to get over the fact that I could get up there in the first place. But after a while he got over it, and we looked at how his very hazardous and very valuable tree was to be managed.

Climbing is an essential part of tree care. It takes special skills and special people to do it well. But it takes many other arborists to care for trees, too.

 

[oldirty]

Now if we ever get to that pruning contest, I'm not going to let you escape by trying to get 100 feet up so nobody can see you loose buddy. We're going to start with tree planting first. Then we're going to do Bonsai second. Next, maybe we can do 1 or 2 miles of small street trees carrying our gear as we go.

now i know this is all related to tree's mario. but this paragraph right here, the one i am quoting, sounds like landscaping to me pal. and from the work pics you sent in, you do good landscaping work. thats my take at least. i didnt see any pics that were what i would consider "tree work".

 

[lxt]

Now there you go again...

I already covered it in the next sentence, and you couldn't figure it out?

Is it right that I should need to take you back to the next sentence of mine and requote myself?



What's with you guys.

Even in the past couple of weeks I mentioned a local Landscape Architect who took the test and got his certification as a CA.

Now if we ever get to that pruning contest, I'm not going to let you escape by trying to get 100 feet up so nobody can see you loose buddy. We're going to start with tree planting first. Then we're going to do Bonsai second. Next, maybe we can do 1 or 2 miles of small street trees carrying our gear as we go. Then big fruit trees. Then we can start advancing bigger and bigger. From Roots to Shoots. That way the contest may end before it even leaves the ground.

And of course my photos don't have anything massive. I got my first digital camera only a month or so before I sold my 385 XP and other stuff, right at the point where I really bailed-out on big tree stuff. Just decided to take a turn in business. No more climbing gear for this kid.

Actually, I think the big reason for the switch, was I realized I just wasn't put-together very well physically to tackle it for very long. So it made sense to just turn the big stuff over to guys with the knack and the knowledge, and get myself established in a niche that I would not ever need to retire out of (and still be able to work in the field).

Really now, I respect you guys.

I can't climb near as well as most of you folks. It would take me light years to get half as good.

LOL

LOL. you are funny!! you dont have to take me any where, CA`s dont need 3yrs in tree work is what were saying & we have proved many dont meet that requirement!! are you with us mentally as well physically?

the pruning contest!!!! come on up!! I said ill foot the bill, ya see we do tree work up in these parts!! & Ill show you that the Grass cutters do what you do!! so lets pass over what anyone can do! & get to the meat & potatoes there CA!! Ill let you warm up in a 40-50footer first before we move on to some bigger stuff, All you gots to do is PM me let me know when would be a good time this summer & Ill get you here & pay your wages, room & board!

Now your last paragraph somes it up!! Nice retreat!! but none the less you have made some pretty brash comments & I for one would like you to put your azz where you mouth can take you.

You mention respecting us, but the whole while you have down played our ability`s, skill, etc... Dont give me this false Internet respect, Come up here & I will show you why to give respect, not just because I climb but because my fixation, desire, knowledge & other abilities are just as good as any CA out there...........I am still learning & will continue to do so!!

Whenever you want to come up M.D, I cant wait!!

LXT.................

 

[treeseer]

my fixation, desire, knowledge & other abilities are just as good as any CA out there....

Well, you got the fixation part down pat, gotta give you that.



Let us know when you're ready to show your stuff and cable that ash.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

Whenever you want to come up M.D, I cant wait!!

LXT.................

Here's one way to think about it...

This flowering cherry tree (image) - same as posted earlier - is after a once per year pruning - a removal of about 20% to 25% for thinning including preserving the living room to valley view over it's top. So "crown-reduced" is part of the yearly ordeal too. It's fairly shaggy beforehand.

It's pruning need is not as severe as a crown-reduced apple tree of this size would be.

The tree is almost exacty 50' across from this angle, and 45' across the other way (my son is the speck in the middle) after pruning, being reduced from about 56' x 48'. It's been raised on this limb viewing side, with more cascade behind, a concept borrowed from Bonsai / Jap. pruning: which makes it seem smaller front-to-back, in the image.

Ignoring clean-up, if you can prune something like this in less than 40 to 50 minutes, then you've got me beat already and can spare me additional embarrassment in the big trees.

My guess is you've done enough similar to this to "ball-park" a guesstimate.

Also...

Treeseer.... that's a really cool photo taken from that tree. Almost postcard looking !!

And...

now i know this is all related to tree's mario. but this paragraph right here, the one i am quoting, sounds like landscaping to me pal. and from the work pics you sent in, you do good landscaping work. thats my take at least. i didnt see any pics that were what i would consider "tree work".

If it's a tree and it's done right, it's tree work and it's arboriculture. If a professional views proper tree care of all sizes of trees to be tree care, that's when I recognize the person as an arborist.

Arboriculture is a sapling to heritage tree & cradle to grave, kind of tree care profession.

 

[bigshea13]

"Any problem I've ever seen in a big tree at 80', has also been found at head level, waist level, sometimes ground level."

,if you'd ever been 80' in a tree, you'd not say this. Cankers, lightning hits, cracks and hollows can all be up there but not perceptible down low.

 

[bigshea13]

on the other hand.........



Actually, I think the big reason for the switch, was I realized I just wasn't put-together very well physically to tackle it for very long. So it made sense to just turn the big stuff over to guys with the knack and the knowledge, and get myself established in a niche that I would not ever need to retire out of (and still be able to work in the field).

work smart not hard.

 

[oldirty]

If it's a tree and it's done right, it's tree work and it's arboriculture. If a professional views proper tree care of all sizes of trees to be tree care, that's when I recognize the person as an arborist.

.

best part of this statement is that your opinion doesnt really matter. my opinion of your work is that you are a glorified landscaper looking for pats on the back by being a certified arborist.

your landscape work is good. be proud of it. but just because the highest you go up in a tree is on an orchard ladder doesnt make you a tree guy.

of all the pics you have sent in, and this is my opinion as well, none of them really show me your a tree guy. and then the statement you make of being able to fully diagnose a tree without even getting in the thing just , to me, verifies your "landscaperness".

handsnips dont make a treeguy.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I think you have misunderstood what Treeseer is saying.

He's saying trees have the same kind of problems at all heights......he's not saying he sees all of the problem from the ground. He has been 80ft. in trees many, many times.

You still must have missed one of my posts.

I know what he wrote.

His reply would only make sense to be directed at me, if I had written that all problems above, could be seen from below.

But what I wrote even earlier - before Treeseer wrote that - was that basically any problem above, can be found below (not "seen from" below).

As I said, I've been at this as much as most of you. May not have climbed in a long time, but I still handle the ground work for climbing CAs. So I may not be as stupid as some of you folks might think.

I mean, think about it. You are the second person telling me that we can't see every defect existing up high, from down on the ground. Do you want to tell me that a Silky Zubat has a handle and a blade? That Felco 2 has a spring? That chippers can have sharp parts inside?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

best part of this statement is that your opinion doesnt really matter. my opinion of your work is that you are a glorified landscaper looking for pats on the back by being a certified arborist.

your landscape work is good. be proud of it. but just because the highest you go up in a tree is on an orchard ladder doesnt make you a tree guy.

of all the pics you have sent in, and this is my opinion as well, none of them really show me your a tree guy. and then the statement you make of being able to fully diagnose a tree without even getting in the thing just , to me, verifies your "landscaperness".

handsnips dont make a treeguy.

My opinion is a broad skills opinion.

If someone thinks that climbing makes one an arborist, then that attitude is basically the same as a lot of "landscapers" I've met.

Because a lot of landscapers DON'T put much weight on small and medium size trees as being "arboriculture" and "tree work", therefore, they damage arboriculture with that attitude.

So in reality, a tree climber that does not view all sizes of trees as "tree work" and "arboriculture" has an even worse attitude than a landscaper who possesses a bad attitude about tree care.

Because arborists should be setting the example, and when their attidude sets the example that smaller stuff is not tree care, they basically encourage landscapers and homeowners to not take tree care seriously.

That attitude is both subtle, and damaging.

It's often said that the effectiveness or "value" of a counterfiet is its closeness to the original. And the attitude that only big tree care is "tree work" is a fine piece of counterfiet, where the "fake bills" (statements) are passed and given.

So a tree climber can be in a position to do expert tree work, but simultaneously undermine arboriculture.

 

[BostonBull]

handsnips dont make a treeguy.

I agree......

Tree guy or not I still want an Arborist (i.e. a person who works with trees daily, and NOT lawns) to work on my small orchard, or even my 25 years old Lace-Leaf Jap Maple, or the beautiful 14" Kousa Dogwood at the corner of my house............would you trust a landscRaper to take the pruning shears/hedge trimmer to one of these?

Hand snips don't make a tree guy, but in my eyes an Arborist should be able to use them, fluently. And also be able to plant, maintain, remedy etc etc. Like was said above a Tree Guy/Arborist should be able to work from the roots to shoots.


And I also am quite surprised that none of you would even dare argue with my Alex Shigo reply. He was THE reason we are where we are in this industry. And he wasn't a climber. He did NOT pass his exams by HONORARY merits. I bet that would make him roll in his grave. He passed his tests, and retests including HIS MCA wayyyyyy back when!

This thread is truly going nowhere but bashing the select few who choose to stay in it this long. We should stop the mud throwing and get along.

If you guys don't like the terms that are currently used to describe what an Arborists is, and you thin that a non climbing Arborist is something else. Get off AS and DO something about it. Write to the ISA, MAA, TCIA etc etc and tell them its wrong and that our industry is growing. Tell them you feel there needs to be changes made.

Do it! Stop whining! I triple dog dare you! make a change!