Becoming and Arborist

[lxt]

I agree......

Tree guy or not I still want an Arborist (i.e. a person who works with trees daily, and NOT lawns) to work on my small orchard, or even my 25 years old Lace-Leaf Jap Maple, or the beautiful 14" Kousa Dogwood at the corner of my house............would you trust a landscRaper to take the pruning shears/hedge trimmer to one of these?

Hand snips don't make a tree guy, but in my eyes an Arborist should be able to use them, fluently. And also be able to plant, maintain, remedy etc etc. Like was said above a Tree Guy/Arborist should be able to work from the roots to shoots.


And I also am quite surprised that none of you would even dare argue with my Alex Shigo reply. He was THE reason we are where we are in this industry. And he wasn't a climber. He did NOT pass his exams by HONORARY merits. I bet that would make him roll in his grave. He passed his tests, and retests including HIS MCA wayyyyyy back when!

This thread is truly going nowhere but bashing the select few who choose to stay in it this long. We should stop the mud throwing and get along.

If you guys don't like the terms that are currently used to describe what an Arborists is, and you thin that a non climbing Arborist is something else. Get off AS and DO something about it. Write to the ISA, MAA, TCIA etc etc and tell them its wrong and that our industry is growing. Tell them you feel there needs to be changes made.

Do it! Stop whining! I triple dog dare you! make a change!

Alex shigo was...... Dr. Shigo correct? a whole different level & way different than what we are taling about here!! he performed what his description suggests......If he could of climbed????? do you think he would of? & how do you know he didnt?

I have complained & written the ISA as well as some other entities regarding title designations & skills testing..........No answer!!!! not even a reply!!

LXT..........

 

[lxt]

The ISA test IS a JOKE!!!! I will always say this until they change the format.

Multipl choice on ID section?

Is this the same guy that just posted? where do you stand Bostonbull?



LXT..........

 

[lxt]

CA will hopefully one day be in the upper echelon of standardized training like some of these other fields. Then there will be no argument that we are needed. Right now everyone views the test, and organization as a money pit. And most CA as Good Ol Boys.

MMMmmmm still the same guy? you bust on the ISA & then wouldnt want anyone else to prune, repair or work on your tree`s?

Or is it that they have to be an MCA? just would like to know where your coming from. didnt you say;I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do?

LXT................

 

[Mitchell]

somem thought sof the top of my flat head

Imho, a solution to the issue might be having the ISA arborist certification card change to reflect weather one has demonstrated the ability to climb and to what proficiency. The certification title and look of the papers, and websites etc could emphasis the importance of the climbing aspect of this job. Perhaps a new job title completely.

All aspects of the job are ultimately equally important however, to use an analogy. It take a lot of people and training to put a guy in the seat of fighter jet but some one still has to strap in on and drive it. It would be misleading to call every one from the wheel chock guy, the engineer through the pilot an airplane specialist.

I would draw the line at no BCMA could be such without climbing experience. We still have loads of trees around here over 150’ tall.

In my experience the best business bang for the buck and personal tree knowledge growth was made from doing my CA. I would recommend it to every one who wants to advance in the field of arboriculture

The process is not perfect but better then the alternatives. In my town it is common for the permit to require a CA do the work. Agree or disagree, that alone makes it a must have for a small tree business around here. Makes it harder for landscapers and such to “try out” tree work as well. It was also part of the reason my insurance rates were discounted.

Clearance, Lxt; Nothing in the world will replace hard won experience but that is hard to quantify to the unknowing public. EVERY, and I mean every job, I have or had is moving steadily into paper qualifications trumping experience. We will pay the price for this but in the mean time I’m getting on board where I have to and when it makes sense. Sadly for you Clearance, city boys and girls with humanist BA’s are making the rules for you country folks to live by. They outnumber you massively, for you it’s the old “is the last sane person on earth still sane?”

Boston; I don’t think the CA exam is to easy so long as they keep the required recert points going. I better get going on mine argh… They should tighten up experience requirements; but that’s the nature of organizations every one likes to close the door behind them. That’s why I think it is better to redefine what an arborist is.

Redlinit; I agree you should be able to have the exam online with a proctor. UNBC would have worked well for you.

 

[beastmaster]

I can drive down any street here in so. Calif and see hat racked trees, lion tailed trees ,trees so thinned out they'll never be natural looking again, and so on. May-be if these butchers were CA's(I don't know their not) the little bit of common sense basics they would have to learn to pass the test would open up their eyes to care for trees more. I work for a great company. We do A1 work. My boss is a CA with over 30 years experience. It's not the ISA that made his business what it is, but his love of his work and dedication to high standards. The general public excepts The ISA CA as a standard in the Industry, so if you don't have it your viewed as (maybe) not as qualified. It's people(we've all ran across them) who use the cert. as a "I am a great and knowledgeable arborist", and don't really know nothing, and use it as a ticket to make unqualified judgments and decisions. Except it as it is, a min. standard to be meet before being aloud to do tree work, and Its a great tool.I know some great tree guys who will not get their CA's just out of spite. That OK too.

 

[treeseer]

Accept it as it is, a min. standard to be meet before being aloud to do tree work, and Its a great tool.I know some great tree guys who will not get their CA's just out of spite. That OK too.

It may be OK, but they shoot themselves in the foot by refusing to take the test.

"I would draw the line at no BCMA could be such without climbing experience. We still have loads of trees around here over 150’ tall."

Mitchell, as a BCMA who climbs, this sounds good at first. Any CA or BCMA who can climb is better qualified than one who is not. The problem with requiring climbing is those who are physically challenged but have the knowledge. No easy matter to decide if and who to exempt.

If anyone wants to show the world they can climb, there is always the CTW.

ISA: "Arboriculture is both an art and a science – combining physical skills and modern technology to utilize scientifically based methods to care for trees.

Those looking to get into the industry might be wondering where to start. Those already in the industry might be asking, “Where do I go next? What are my career options?”

This resource provides anyone with an interest in arboriculture with multiple career path options in flow-chart form. Possible careers are listed and linked to other areas one can move into. For example, if someone were interested in obtaining an entry-level groundworker position, the flow chart would show him or her which advancement opportunities are available. While there can be variations in each path, this chart offers the most typical progressions.

Click here.to view the flowchart.

More information on the position can be obtained by clicking on the career title’s box. When chosen, the box links to another screen that provides a detailed job description, background needed to obtain the position, eligibility requirements, education/training needs, recommended or required certification and licenses, and the typical future career path. The new page also provides a photo of the profession and lists education and training materials for someone who holds the position.

Certification is an integral part of arboriculture, and this resource provides the user with information regarding the applicable certifications in the arboriculture profession. Information is provided concerning eligibility, test content, requirements, and test preparation resources.

If you are looking to start or continue a career in arboriculture, this resource provides an awareness of the field, a practical career outlook, and what education or experience you need to get where you want to be. If you are ready to enter the commercial/residential/utility tree care profession, check your local yellow pages for tree companies in your area. If you have never worked in the tree care industry and are looking to start your career in arboriculture here are a few things you should look for and questions you should ask employers:

* Look for companies that are members of ISA or TCIA, and look for companies that employ Certified Arborists.
* Ask employers to clearly define a career path for you. Who will train you? Ask to see a copy of their training program and how they document their employee training and job progression program. Who in the company is responsible for your career advancement?

If you wish to study arboriculture at the college level, check with universities or community colleges in your area to see what courses they offer in the subjects of urban forestry, landscape horticulture, plant pathology, or related subjects. Contact ISA (888-ISA-TREE) for a list of schools that are active in arboriculture education.

To search through a list of schools that are active in arboriculture education, please click here.

 

[Mitchell]

climbing BCMA

It may be OK, but they shoot themselves in the foot by refusing to take the test.

"I would draw the line at no BCMA could be such without climbing experience. We still have loads of trees around here over 150’ tall."

Mitchell, as a BCMA who climbs, this sounds good at first. Any CA or BCMA who can climb is better qualified than one who is not. The problem with requiring climbing is those who are physically challenged but have the knowledge. No easy matter to decide if and who to exempt.
.

Agreed, Good post.
However discriminatory as it is, I just can not wrap my head around a "master arborist" not being able to do an integral part of tree care; going up and getting in them. I don't think it is asking a lot; climbing trees without stressful time constraints or removal demands is not a hard thing to do with all the MA devices/systems out there.

Further, I believe after knowledge, climbing to be the fundamental aspect of tree care. I can not imagine trying to run my own arborist service with out climbing. I would be out of 80% of my work overnight. I theorize I could be lacking knowledge or ability in just about any other area and still be profitable. [I realize consulting arborists can do this, but there is only a couple who can rely on that relative to the number of climbing arborist.
cheers

 

[M.D. Vaden]

... I can not imagine trying to run my own arborist service with out climbing. I would be out of 80% of my work overnight. I theorize I could be lacking knowledge or ability in just about any other area and still be profitable. [I realize consulting arborists can do this, but there is only a couple who can rely on that relative to the number of climbing arborist.
cheers

Our imaginations can parallel our experience.

When I was in college, one instructor who had been in business, told be that it was impossible to succeed in business by doing only small size pruning, and without doing lawn care maintenance.

His imagination was affected by his experience. In fact, he limited his imagination to his experience.

So in 1988, I started as a "pruning specialist" without doing any lawn maintenance, almost no landscaping and no big tree work. Just the one niche.

5 years later, I was glad to explain to the instructor how well business was going, and how it was available to succeed in what he said could not work.

Later I expanded into landscape design, after seeing the vast number of pitiful designs that many designers were doing. I figured since I spent years battling their messes by positioning plants wrong, I may as well do a few myself, but designed right.

A common problem for designers, is that they lack a knowledge of pruning and tree care, not knowing how that is relevant to where big plants can grow. Because there must be a pruning solution for every plant if it is to remain and develop.

The huge defect among many arborists, is a lack of comprehensive landscape knowledge. That's why it's a distraction to imagine that climbing makes an "arborist", when the more important issue is that at least half the climbing arborists have little comprehensive understanding about landscaping.

Trees are not what it's all about. Trees are components of landscaping in many cases, and fit in, just like a transmission fits into a car.

If a climber's ability is handicapped due to a lack of knowledge about the entirre landscape that the tree can affect, who cares about their gear and climbing ability.

Really, if a tree is isolated like at a downtown sidewalk, an arborist can be an arborist if they prune that one tree and understand it as an individual organism.

But take the same arborist, and if they prune trees in a big landscape lot full of shrubs, turf, flowers, drainage, etc., and if they don't understand the small plants, and can't READ the DESIGN of the yard, they are not an arborist anymore. They no longer are caring for the tree as part of the whole landscape to which it belongs.

In such a case, they are "cowboys" doing their own thing, but working out of their league, and not in harmony with all the professional aspects and components that may have been integrated into a property.

 

[BostonBull]

Alex shigo was...... Dr. Shigo correct? a whole different level & way different than what we are taling about here!! he performed what his description suggests......If he could of climbed????? do you think he would of? & how do you know he didnt?

I have complained & written the ISA as well as some other entities regarding title designations & skills testing..........No answer!!!! not even a reply!!

LXT..........

The man wasnt born a Dr.! So he wasnt an Arborist until he got his doctrate? Becausehe climbed limitedly, if at all?

 

[BostonBull]

Is this the same guy that just posted? where do you stand Bostonbull?



LXT..........

I NEVER stuttered! did you read my post or are you picking out what you want? The ISA TEST is a joke.

 

[clearance]

Thats fine M.D., and I agree, beautiful yards are rare, and they don't get that way without wisdom.

In my world (utility) it is all about getting the required clearance, or cutting down hazard trees. It ain't about pretty, proper cuts are made, and thats about it. It is either trimmed or cut down, thats the only choices.

It can be a deadly job, power gives no second chance. We that do the job are highly trained, some of those who supervise us are not, coupled with the fact that they think they are special, problems are bound to happen. When you get an ISA arborist who has become a utility specialist, (by getting at least 75% on multiple choice test), but never done the work, what can he really know? And should he tell people how to do thier work, he is allowed to by the utility, but is it right? I say not.

There are also men who work for the utility, who were there before the utility got into the ISA, and some of them are good guys, who I like. They knew thier job before, they never tell us how to do our job, they just tell us what they want done. Now you have people in the same job, that promote and allow unsafe work practices, when they are supposed to uphold the safety rules. It makes me sick, I have been treated like sh#t for standing up for what is right and safe and probably limited my career growth by calling b.s. on these people. Thats what I really have a beef with, culls telling the treemen how to do the work.

 

[BostonBull]

MMMmmmm still the same guy? you bust on the ISA & then wouldnt want anyone else to prune, repair or work on your tree`s?

Or is it that they have to be an MCA? just would like to know where your coming from. didnt you say;I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do?

LXT................

I would NEVER ask ANYONE to do something I wouldnt, which hasnt come up yet! I will do anything once.

I live by the adage.........You dont know your limits until you find them. You find them by breaking the limits. How do you know what your capable of until you fail at it?

 

[BostonBull]

MMMmmmm still the same guy? you bust on the ISA & then wouldnt want anyone else to prune, repair or work on your tree`s?

Or is it that they have to be an MCA? just would like to know where your coming from. didnt you say;I wouldnt ask anyone to do something I wouldnt do?

LXT................

The comment about the upper echelon meant when we are in the trades that have testing similiar to electricians, linesman, plumbers.

 

[BostonBull]

I trid to take the high road to stop the arguing this morning.......this thread is going in circles.

 

[Mitchell]

valid point

Our imaginations can parallel our experience.

When I was in college, one instructor who had been in business, told be that it was impossible to succeed in business by doing only small size pruning, and without doing lawn care maintenance.

His imagination was affected by his experience. In fact, he limited his imagination to his experience.

So in 1988, I started as a "pruning specialist" without doing any lawn maintenance, almost no landscaping and no big tree work. Just the one niche.

5 years later, I was glad to explain to the instructor how well business was going, and how it was available to succeed in what he said could not work.

In such a case, they are "cowboys" doing their own thing, but working out of their league, and not in harmony with all the professional aspects and components that may have been integrated into a property.

I agree my reality is defined by me to a large extent but so is the realities of tree work vs landscaping. In my experience there is to much overlap with landscapers, horticulturists and gardeners on the ground.

Pruners and planters could just as well advertise themselves as horticulturists. I say to folks that arborists definitively take over when things get to high. In my mind anyways, that is what differentiates a horticulturalist from an arborist. That's not to say I don't plant or plan plantings, I do, but I let folks know they can likely get it done cheaper from a horticulturist or landscaper. [That's just the reality of so many guys with shovels in their trucks and nurseries paying crap wages.]

I would say you are doing as much or more of landscaping/hort then arborist work.
I agree that every things connected and needs to work in harmony but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

 

[oldirty]

I would say you are doing as much or more of landscaping/hort then arborist work.
I agree that every things connected and needs to work in harmony but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

totally agree with this statement. mario you are a landscaper masquerading as an arborist.

just because you are certified does not make you a tree guy.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

I agree my reality is defined by me to a large extent but so is the realities of tree work vs landscaping. In my experience there is to much overlap with landscapers, horticulturists and gardeners on the ground.

Pruners and planters could just as well advertise themselves as horticulturists. I say to folks that arborists definitively take over when things get to high. In my mind anyways, that is what differentiates a horticulturalist from an arborist. That's not to say I don't plant or plan plantings, I do, but I let folks know they can likely get it done cheaper from a horticulturist or landscaper. [That's just the reality of so many guys with shovels in their trucks and nurseries paying crap wages.]

I would say you are doing as much or more of landscaping/hort then arborist work.
I agree that every things connected and needs to work in harmony but a line has to be drawn somewhere.

Actually, 80% of my work is tree and shrub pruning, about 2/3 of it trees. Then if I encounter single large trees, I completely refer those to climbing arborists since a middleman is pointless. If a big tree or trees is in a yard with a bunch of small trees, I'll sub-contract to the climber. Sometimes I'll be their ground guy on ropes.

One of my favorite parts of tree related work involves the rope stuff. It's fun to control and manipulate limbs and chunks of wood. It's also been a backsaver by guiding heavy debris over obstacles using the rope. One fun one was the top of a tree we guided over a creek to avoid the hassle of dragging brush to the other side.

So all-in-all, I find the rope work relaxing.

As far as trees go, for climbers, I would like to see some genious someday, invent a chainsaw that could make their work more relaxing too. Personally, I find handsaw pruning relaxing, even if its work. But with chainsaws, often it's the weight and bulk of the machine that's more of a nuisance than the noise.

If only some engineer could find a way to make a chainsaw 1/2 the weight, it would be marvelous. Even if it was just the small saws. Wouldn't it be grand to have a climbing saw that was 50% lighter in weight. Myself, I wouldn't even mind paying $1200 for a small saw, if it was something special like graphite or something, with special alloys, etc..

Someone ought to figure out how to do with chainsaws, like they have done with motorcycles. Like where new ideas were used, say, using the frame for oil. In a chainsaw, why can't a handle become the gas tank to save weight, on a small saw?

 

[ropensaddle]

Actually, 80% of my work is tree and shrub pruning, about 2/3 of it trees. Then if I encounter single large trees, I completely refer those to climbing arborists since a middleman is pointless. If a big tree or trees is in a yard with a bunch of small trees, I'll sub-contract to the climber. Sometimes I'll be their ground guy on ropes.

One of my favorite parts of tree related work involves the rope stuff. It's fun to control and manipulate limbs and chunks of wood. It's also been a backsaver by guiding heavy debris over obstacles using the rope. One fun one was the top of a tree we guided over a creek to avoid the hassle of dragging brush to the other side.

So all-in-all, I find the rope work relaxing.

I don't see the problem with that,I would sub if you were closer
and be glad to get referrals. It takes all sorts of arborists to better phc.
I like rope work at times myself, someday s I love to chip brush but
not often. Your knowledge and experience did not come by being
lazy. I for one would be proud to have you at the end of my rope!
A good rope man knowledge in every area of Arboriculture ,who
could ask for more?

 

[M.D. Vaden]

totally agree with this statement. mario you are a landscaper masquerading as an arborist.

just because you are certified does not make you a tree guy.

When climbers go to work, they don't climb into a tree.

They step onto a piece of property, in many cases.

The tree is one component of a big piece of landscaping, the workings of which, many climbers have little comprehensive understanding.

Some arborists do, but most of us have been around long enough to know how many or how few arborists are trained to understand the whole landscape. So let's not kid around.

An arborist is an arborist only if they are working in a landscaped environment where they understand the effects of the trees they are working on, and the effects to that environment by what they do on that tree, or trees.

If not, they are masquerading as arborists.

The difference in my case, is that I understand the turf, turf ID, soils, drainage, irrigation, shrubs, perennials, trees and arboriculture, annuals and perennials and more. And when I step onto a property, I understand with comprehension almost everything I work on.

Basically, when compared to someone whose only training and focus is for trees, my service is 300% better. I know trees like the arborists, and landscaping like the landscapers, and design like the designers.

I just can't imagine anymore what it would be like to offer tree service to people, without understanding the rest of the yard.

It's one reason I get so many projects when bidding against some of Portland's more experienced arborist / climber services. Because I'm the one doing the estimates, and the people can see a day vs. night difference when I discuss their trees in relation to to the rest of their property. They figure why get a guy in there that just knows trees, when they can get someone in their that understands their entire plant collection. When paying hundreds of dollars, why pay for 1/3 ability, when you can get 3/3 ability? The decision is obvious.

That's the #1 reason I try not to leave bids without meeting people in person. If I can meet them, it's virtually mine to do. Only 10% or so slip away.

So in a nutshell, I think the potential pitfall for some arborists, is that they see themselves as climbing into a tree, rather than acknowledging they are stepping into a entire plant collection and landscape environment.

 

[oldirty]

i dont understand how you can think your services are 300% better than anyone else if you cant get into the tree to properly diagnose or even work the friggin thing.

go ahead and get someone else to do the work, thats right. your a manager. you delegate your work.


no matter what you say about what you do you will not get my respect for your aboricultural skill. you prune trees in a lanscaped setting. how many of your cherry trees are up over the clients house? what you do is landscape work. plain and simple.

you can say what your saying seven hundered different ways but that will not change the fact you are a landscaper with ornamental tree pruning skill.