Well. used the Vermeer 650 yesterday all day, I have to say I was very impressed with the power these things have! Used just the grapple and it too was impressive. I was lifting some pretty good sized logs out from down a decent grade and back up a hill. Also the grapples opened up pretty wide and was able to grab a good pile of brush with it. We were in a rural setting taking a poplar and some cedars out of a creek. only had to go back and fourth across the lawn and didn't mark it up doing that. Controls were very nice and easy to use, my groundy had no problems operating it and we both were running it smoothly after a bit of running it. Was nice, I am hoping to demo the DW and bobcat as they are a bit lower in price. The 650 I demoed is 29 k, and only comes with a bucket, grapple and grapple bucket are extra.