Bidding Question (Help!)

[mcharp]

I found my stepfather a job which requires the removal of 10 medium-small trees and 5 big oaks. He is planning on renting a Bobcat, a lift, a dump truck and stump grinder (all stumps must be ground). He'll be cutting the trees in 10 ft. sections and making trips back and forth to the dump site. He has two weeks to work with and is planning on asking for half the money up front to cover the equipment, etc.

He's done small jobs before, but nothing like this. Our family could really use the money but there are two other bids and we have no idea how to price the work. My main question to whoever would be gracious enough to reply is: what is a fair price for this kind of job?

My second question is would he need a work permit and insurance for the two weeks? It's a chuch/business on about 1 acre.

Thanks so much for any feedback,
Mike

 

[imagineero]

Not intending to give offense, just being honest, but if your stepfather is thinking along the same path as you, then you are both way out of your league. It doesn't sound like a big job at all, but if he has to rent all that gear then he can't compete against other tree companies that are geared up, and he's obviously going to be a lot slower also. If there are other people bidding against you, you are unlikely to win the job.

Assuming you've won the job, pics will help a lot if you want advice. Everyone has a different idea of what a 'medium-small tree' is, but to me, 10 medium-small trees means about 4 hours work for a 4 man crew including chipping and cleanup. Medium to small trees are under 30', and straight dropping from the ground with no climbing. If there's minor climbing involved then it turns into a dayjob. Same story with '5 large oaks'. I haven't yet met an oak big enough that it would take more than 2 days to take down, rip, chip and clean up, and that's for a tree that needs climbing. If they can be dropped then it's a lot faster.

Nobody can give you even a ballpark figure based on the information you've provided, even if the ballpark was the size of Africa. The price will vary enormously based on the actual height, spread and location of each of the treas, whether they are technical removals or can be dropped, and the access to the site. Regardless of all these factors, based on the description of the job it sounds to me that your proposed method of attempting it, presumably to use the bucket to cut the trees, then cut them to length, load them into the dump with the bobcat, drive to the dump, return, rinse and repeat, is probably the most expensive and least efficient way of getting the job done. You stand a high chance of getting badly badly burned financially.

Permits and insurance vary by state and country. Depending on where you live he may need it, in which case you can't get it just for 2 weeks, nobody will give it to you... or you may need nothing.

Shaun

 

[mcharp]

No offense taken, I appreciate the feedback. The only reason we stand a chance of getting the job is because I am connected to the person doing the hiring. We are out of our league but you gotta start somewhere, right? He does have to rent the equipment, but I don't think he will be slower. He knows how to operate the machines and said he could have all the trees down in one full day, 2 days max. After that it would just be trips to the dump site and grinding the stumps, plus cleanup. We will have a small crew helping out. I will ask him later today to describe the trees; I think they can all be dropped.

You say: "your proposed method of attempting it, presumably to use the bucket to cut the trees, then cut them to length, load them into the dump with the bobcat, drive to the dump, return, rinse and repeat, is probably the most expensive and least efficient way of getting the job done." What other method do you suggest?

Thanks for the advice,
Mike

 

[mcharp]

No offense taken. We are out of our league but you have to start somewhere, right?

All the trees can be dropped, very easy access to the area. There are 4 Oaks about 3 ft. in diameter at the base, 75 ft.-80 ft. tall... 1 Oak is 2 ft. in diameter, same height. 4-5 Pine trees about 1 ft in diameter, 75 ft. tall. 3 pecan trees 1/2 ft. in diameter, 20 ft. tall. 6-7 young oaks about 10 inch diameter and 25-30 ft tall. They also want trimming done on the base limbs of 3 oaks and one pecan tree. All stumps must be ground and everything hauled off. Is this info good for a ball park figure so we can make a bid?

You said: "the description of the job it sounds to me that your proposed method of attempting it, presumably to use the bucket to cut the trees, then cut them to length, load them into the dump with the bobcat, drive to the dump, return, rinse and repeat, is probably the most expensive and least efficient way of getting the job done." What other method do you suggest?

Thanks for the advice. The only reason we may get the work is because I am connected to the person doing the hiring.

Mike

 

[mcharp]

For some reason my post keeps getting deleted, so to make it quick here is the info:

4 Oaks, 3-4ft in diameter at the base, 75-80 ft. tall.

1 Oak 2 ft. diameter, 75 ft. tall.

3 Pecan trees 10 inch diameter, 75 ft tall.

5-6 Pine trees 1 ft. diameter, 75-80 ft. tall.

6-7 young Oaks 8 inch diameter, 25-30 ft. tall.

Will be trimming base limbs from 4 Oaks, grinding all stumps, hauling everything off. Very easy access and all trees can be dropped. Is this enough for a ball park estimate?

Also, you said: "it sounds to me that your proposed method of attempting it, presumably to use the bucket to cut the trees, then cut them to length, load them into the dump with the bobcat, drive to the dump, return, rinse and repeat, is probably the most expensive and least efficient way of getting the job done." What is the better method?

Thanks for the advice,
Mike

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Sorry, gotta have pcs to do ya any good. Depending on how big the dump truck is, and how good the guy cuttin it down is, could be 30 loads or more. Trees always grow when they hit the ground.

 

[imagineero]

The Jolly Logger is right... it's kind of like asking 'how much to paint my house? It's a big house". Any estimates will be vague at best.

The devil is in the details, and there are a lot missing. The distance to the dump, the size of the truck, and how much you are paying to dump for example, and the spread of the trees. Are the 4 oaks that are getting trimmed in addition to the rest of the trees mentioned? Are they all tall narrow trees like pin oaks, or huge spreading trees like english oaks which may spread out a couple hundred feet... Also, the numbers you've given on the trees don't quite match up, 75' high and only 10" in diameter?

Anyways, working with what we've got, the way to get it done is with a truck with a chip bin and a chipper. All those smaller trees you can knock straight over, and winch as whole trees to the chipper. 15-20 minutes each tree, all gone. The church may even take the mulch. If you've got to drop, limb, buck, load, drive and pay to dump then bank on closer to a day for each tree, or for each two trees depending on how far to the dump. You can fit approximately 10~15 times as much trees into a truck by chipping brush as you can by loading it loose. The oaks aren't especially large, but assuming they're pin oaks you'd be looking at knocking the whole job over from go to stop in 2-3 days with a small crew and a truck and chipper. $4k at the very low end right up to maybe $6.5~$7k if they're bigger trees. Stumps sound like they're worth about $800~$1000 on top. I'd outsource the stumps if it was me, someone with a good size machine can knock that out in a half day or so. The size of machine you're likely to be able to hire will take several days and still not do as good of a job.

If I was in your position, I'd be trying to eliminate as many variables as I could. Eliminate dumping fees for starters, forget the lift (not sure why you mentioned that in the first post if they can all be dropped) Assuming again, that your stepfather is a competent faller and has enough saws and plenty of chain, have him drop all the trees on the first day if there's room. Have 3-4 guys there on the second day, see if you can hire a chipper. Get at least a 12". Bank on hiring the chipper for 2 days but you might get away with one, especially if there is plenty of room on the site. See if the church will take the mulch - you may not even need a dump that way. Third or fourth day buck up all the bigger trees, Hire the bobcat for a day and take the oak back to your place where you can split and stack at your leisure and make some money off the firewood if you're so inclined. Otherwise, you shouldn't have too much trouble giving it away to any local firewood guy. He might even come pick it up if you load him with the bobcat. Sub the stumps out, and leave a whole day for cleanup if they require it - all the noodles, leaves, etc. It will easily fill a small dump truck, maybe even two loads.

If the other people bidding are tree guys they'll probably come in under you though if you've got to hire all that gear honestly. And If I was the client I'd be hiring them anyhow - they're licensed, insured and experienced. A tree company with a 20 cube truck and an 18 inch chipper with a winch and a small crew could bowl that job over pretty easily from how you describe it.

Shaun

 

[B Harrison]

Your in over your head, just get a job at walmart and he will be better off.

 

[mcharp]

Thanks, Shaun! May God bless you for taking the time to answer my questions to the best of your ability. If we actually land the job I'll let you know how it turns out. If nothing else the info will help us out in the future.

Mike

 

[imagineero]

That's what we're here for. We all got our start somewhere. I'd be interested to know either way, and take some pictures if you can too... we all love seeing pics! You could do alright out of this job if you negotiate it right, but I've found churches are the worst kind of customer if making money is what you're about. If you just want to make a few dollars and have nothing better to do with your time, then you could probably sell it as some kind of deal where the church members all come and take home some of the firewood, or even pitch in to give a hand with the cleanup and you get paid basically for your time and they cover the equipment hire. A deal like that is never going to fly with commercial customers, but churches are a bit of a different story.

Shaun

 

[Zale]

My gut tells me you might be biting off more than you can chew. Besides the rental equipment, what kind of saws do you have?

 

[TheJollyLogger]

My gut tells me you might be biting off more than you can chew. Besides the rental equipment, what kind of saws do you have?

And gear, and for that matter experience? Not to discourage you, but to help you. We got no dog in this fight, just want to help. The fact that you're asking for bid advice tells me this is a bigger job than y'all have tackled before.

 

[mcharp]

It is definitely a bigger job than we've handled before. We have fairly nice chainsaws and a pole saw (I don't know much about it, it's my stepfather who does the real work). My stepfather has experience with falling trees but usually doesn't use heavy equipment, though he has in the past and knows how to operate the machinery. He is very good and grew up working on a farm all his life, just not experienced with non-residential work. I'm going to talk to the person doing the hiring tomorrow night and see if he'll tell us what the lowest bid is so we can figure the numbers, try to give them the cheapest price and of course make a good profit. It probably won't work out but I'm not going to give up just yet.

If it's meant to be it will be! Thanks for the replies,
Mike

 

[mcharp]

By the way the reason I say the job is bigger than we're used to isn't because of the number of trees, but because of the light poles and statues around the trees we have to avoid. He dropped 20 trees at his house just using a rope and his truck, so doing the work isn't the problem, just pricing it!

 

[miko0618]

are you dropping the 4 oaks? or just trimming them? 4 80' tall oaks (depending on the species) is a LOT of wood! if your hauling them, your going to have a hard time getting 1 of them done in a day. and just falling trees using a pick up and a rope could be a disaster. I doubt you'll have a strong enough rope. without climbing or throwline knowledge you wont be able to get the rope high enough. falling trees and pole saws are about the best way a homeowner/novice can kill himself with a tree. the cuts need to be done correctly. I usually climb trees that don't NEED to be climbed to be dropped. I can control the balance to guide the fall, reduce the weight and reduce the impact damage.

heres why you will be under bid or not make any money. I did 3 trees this afternoon. 2 pines and 1 maple. they all were about 20-30'. one pine was 10" the other was 14". the maple had 2 12" stems. the stumps where cut flush. it took me and 1 guy 2 hours to drop, chip, cut the trunk and stump, clean up, get the check and b.s. with the guy about his motorcycle for a half hour. without a chipper, it would have been 2 loads to the dump. that's 2 hours right there. plus the 2 hours of work you did. if your as efficient as I am.

heres the break down:

for me
$100/tree
-$20 for fuel
-$30 labor

$250 profit for 2 hours work.

for you
$50 fuel
$60 labor
$110 dump fee

$80 profit for 4 hours work assuming you didn't rent anything.

I just have a small company. a company with a large crew, large capacity chip truck and a big chipper could have done those 3 in 45 minutes. if you are interested in a quick buck, cut grass. if you are interested in this business, get educated and start with small removals and trim jobs. theres good money in trimming.

 

[RVALUE]

All the previous information is good and bad, all wrapped up in one.

I second the comments that it is far cheaper to hire a real stump grinder, than you it is to rent. And that is even counting your labor as free. Maybe 1/4 the total cost. And you would not be lifting a finger, so to speak. The ones for rent barely work at all, and ........

Hauling brush off, versus chipping, is viable, and would result in a satisfactory job. Providing you don't have a dump fee. Renting a piece of equipment to help you might defeat the purpose. (the rent clicks along the entire time it is there, and it is only marginally beneficial, or possibly not an asset at all.) I just took out 9 - 80 foot oaks, (20 - 24 inch breast height) and my friend the homeowner, used his 3 large sons and a bobcat to load the wood / brush in my dump trailer, with me only sawing off the stumps near the ground) at exactly twice the time it would have taken me alone to load the same with my tractor / forks. You can rent bobcats, you can't rent forks like mine usually.

Destroying one thing while dropping trees, might defeat the whole job.

As for 'profit', the net result will be 'poor wages' if all goes well.

Otherwise, taking it on, is a great learning experience, and pricing it is up the the people involved. Pray about it. Hopefully this is just what your family needs to get to the next step.

 

[mcharp]

Miko, we're not using the rope/pickup truck for this job (although I think my stepfather wishes we could!), that's just what he's done on small residential work and for 20 trees at his home. This job we are planning on using the method imaineero suggested: drop all trees on the first day, after that have a small crew to help with the chipping. Then we'll do the trimming on a few Oaks while a hired stump grinder does his part; after that it's cleanup and we're finished. We'll also use a Bobcat and give others firewood and mulch or take it back to the house for ourselves.

RVALUE, we have definitely been praying about it! I'm talking to the person doing the hiring tonight and will see how it goes. I might have to talk to his second in command or he may go ahead and give me an answer. I will report back and let you guys know. If nothing else just talking to y'all and thinking so much about how to approach the job has been a great benefit that will help us in the future when something else comes along. I really appreciate it,

Mike

 

[miko0618]

I am not meaning to be negative. I just know how bad it sucks when your not even finished and you have broken even at that point. its a lot of work to not get paid well for it.

 

[mcharp]

The lowest bid is $10,000... with renting the equipment we can't afford to do it for that little. 10k seems pretty cheap? They need some trimming and a fence moved that isn't part of the bid, so we still might be able to make a little money that way.