Bidding two huge take-downs----

[Sunrise Guy]

I am wondering what you guys would charge for this, in your neck of the woods: Two American Elms, well into their downward mortality spirals. Both are between two houses with only twelve feet separating those houses. They are about fifteen feet from each other. DBH of each is 48"+. Four main leaders on each with about sixty-five running feet to each leader. Smaller branches are breaking off all over the place and one went through the client's roof during the last storm down here. If you know American Elms, these are the typical super-spread ones. Each one spans about one hundred feet. They overlap at about fifty feet up.

I am going to need to crane both out, and there is no great place to stage them. Also, the road the houses are on is super busy and narrow. It is almost impossible to even pull out of these houses because of the non-stop traffic.

This may turn out to be the removal from (censored). I'll get peter-panned up to the tops and then rig out on the jib. I'm not even sure that we can set trailers in the narrow driveways, since the crane will need the space, if it even fits. Forget chipping. Most of the wood is over 30" with a good percentage being wider than that.

Oh yeah, sprinkler systems are on the lawns where the crane and/or spars are bound to crush them.

The weight of the trees have been high-balled at 100 tons, for the two.

I am coming up with a spread of $12-15,000, including the crane. I get the bad feeling that our monkeys with chainsaws will bid the job at around $3,000 and just climb up the trees with no PPE and no ropes as they like to do, down here, to show off their great machismo (stupidity). There is no way I'm trusting my life to these elms by climbing them as they rot away, but that usually never stops the monkeys.

Anyway, I'm just curious how you "see" this gig. Yeah, I can get some pictures up here later today, after I meet with the crane guys. Until then, what are your gut feelings about price?

 

[Wolfking42084]

Sunrise, How long you expecting to use the crane on each tree? With only 12' between houses and the downfall of those trees, I dont think you're that far off at all. I hate those crane jobs, where you can't fit the darn thing in the drive.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'd agree, between crane costs and trucking for disposal there is going to be a big payout.

I would break them down in my bid as upper end cost estimates.

On a few occasions I have done jobs like this where I let the client contract the crane and trucking with the condition that I ramrod it.

I've also done it where several roll-off dumps move in and out to keep the debris from piling up.

Most often i just bid high and walk away on those, like you figuring I will not get it. The past few years I will call a few of my associates who do mostly huge removals and get them in on it. It can usually shave off a few grand that way.

One operator is highly mechanized, and sells firewood. He can work with bigger loads than most companies I know.

 

[Raymond]

I wouldn't spend another minute thinking about it.
Like you said some dip:censored: tree guy wannabe's will underbid you anyway.

It's easy to get cheaper bids but getting it finished and done right is another thing.
Let the customer find this out themselves. :computer:

 

[TDunk]

I wouldn't get to worked up about it. If there are limbs dead enough and big enough to break off and go through a roof, there's no way i'd climb it either. Just turn in the bid, maybe break the bid down for him, and go from there. 12-15K may be a huge chunk of change, but your also talking about two huge @$$ dead tree's smack dab between two houses. Good luck.

 

[Wolfking42084]

The ones that I love are jobs like this and I bid some insane amount just so I don't get it and the people want to know when I can start! The roll off dumps sound like a good idea on this job. Not to take away from the thread...I had one a couple months back that I bid really high so I wouldn't get it and the people still wanted me to do it until I told them I would be bringing in the t-300 to move the trunk and other pieces of wood from out of the back yard, into the front parking area to load them. They didn't want machinery on their lawn and I wasn't about to carry 30-40" firewood sized pieces by hand so they went with a very large company. I was by there the other day and there was a #18,000 excavator in the back yard moving wood! haha

Don't underestimate the time involved for the crane. Sounds like a fun job for you sunrise! get some pics

 

[arbor pro]

As of last spring, various area homeowners had failed to remove their dead elm trees within the time frame specified by the city. The city then contracted out the removals with the intent of billing each homeowner.

Reluctantly, I put in my bid on four different locations. The first location was similar to the situation Sunrise described - twin elms, each over 48" dbh and 80' or so canopy spread - crane job all the way. I bid $7500 for the full removal of both elms with cleanup and disposal of debris. The low bid was $900. The second job was a single 60" dbh elm, only 60' tall x 60' spread but big big wood - crane job all the way. I bid $5000 for full removal with full cleanup and disposal of debris. The low bid was $400.

By now, you're guessing that the winner of the bid was this hack with no PPE, no truck or climbing gear, no insurance, etc, etc. Nope. He's the biggest tree service in the area. He runs a half dozen new International 60' bucket trucks, new grapple loader truck, new Intimidator chippers, new skid loaders - new everything. He makes his money off of utility contracts and apparently keeps his guys busy on the side by doing local contract and residential work for practically free.

He has gotten our city tree removal contract the last four years running by doing the work for a fraction of what other bidders submit. Last year, Asplundh was his only competing bidder. He bid 1/5 of what they did. This year, he took the stump removal contract away from me. He bid was half of mine and I was the next lowest bidder. Everyone else was way higher yet.

All it takes is one lowballer, for whatever his reasons, to destroy the market for everybody else. Apparently, the guy I'm talking about gets paid a lot of money to do utility work so, why does he have to destroy the residential market for everybody else unless his plan is to drive us all out so he can then have a monopoly and jack up his prices... :monkey:

It's a good thing my business focus is on pruning and light removals. I can make money on hourly pruning work around here but there's just no profit in bidding removal jobs - not unless it's a job the big guys can't get to with their big trucks - then, I can come in with my small equipment and make a fair profit. But, as for the big removals, I won't even bid them anymore.

 

[Raymond]

As of last spring, various area homeowners had failed to remove their dead elm trees within the time frame specified by the city. The city then contracted out the removals with the intent of billing each homeowner.

Reluctantly, I put in my bid on four different locations. The first location was similar to the situation Sunrise described - twin elms, each over 48" dbh and 80' or so canopy spread - crane job all the way. I bid $7500 for the full removal of both elms with cleanup and disposal of debris. The low bid was $900. The second job was a single 60" dbh elm, only 60' tall x 60' spread but big big wood - crane job all the way. I bid $5000 for full removal with full cleanup and disposal of debris. The low bid was $400.

By now, you're guessing that the winner of the bid was this hack with no PPE, no truck or climbing gear, no insurance, etc, etc. Nope. He's the biggest tree service in the area. He runs a half dozen new International 60' bucket trucks, new grapple loader truck, new Intimidator chippers, new skid loaders - new everything. He makes his money off of utility contracts and apparently keeps his guys busy on the side by doing local contract and residential work for practically free.

He has gotten our city tree removal contract the last four years running by doing the work for a fraction of what other bidders submit. Last year, Asplundh was his only competing bidder. He bid 1/5 of what they did. This year, he took the stump removal contract away from me. He bid was half of mine and I was the next lowest bidder. Everyone else was way higher yet.

All it takes is one lowballer, for whatever his reasons, to destroy the market for everybody else. Apparently, the guy I'm talking about gets paid a lot of money to do utility work so, why does he have to destroy the residential market for everybody else unless his plan is to drive us all out so he can then have a monopoly and jack up his prices... :monkey:

It's a good thing my business focus is on pruning and light removals. I can make money on hourly pruning work around here but there's just no profit in bidding removal jobs - not unless it's a job the big guys can't get to with their big trucks - then, I can come in with my small equipment and make a fair profit. But, as for the big removals, I won't even bid them anymore.

I ran into a similar situation were a GF for Asplundh had underbid one of my jobs on Asplundh's clock.

The customer called me telling me they got a lot better bid from another company. I explained they were probably a fly by night hammer f:censored: tree service. The guy said oh no it was the bigger outfit called Asplundh, that's what the white truck said.

Really I told him. Them guys are power line guys only. They're not supposed to big residential work in a company truck. He didn't care he was getting a job done for cheap.

I made the calls trying to get the GF in trouble but never heard anything from it.
Kinda took the fun out of not knowing if he lost his job or not.

 

[TreeTopKid]

I am wondering what you guys would charge for this, in your neck of the woods: Two American Elms, well into their do............

I was guessing $8-$10k but it sounds a pig so without seeing it I'm saying your quote is probably fair. There are plenty of monkeys here too SRG I feel your pain.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

As of last spring, various area homeowners had failed to remove their dead elm trees within the time frame specified by the city. The city then contracted out the removals with the intent of billing each homeowner.

Reluctantly, I put in my bid on four different locations. The first location was similar to the situation Sunrise described - twin elms, each over 48" dbh and 80' or so canopy spread - crane job all the way. I bid $7500 for the full removal of both elms with cleanup and disposal of debris. The low bid was $900. The second job was a single 60" dbh elm, only 60' tall x 60' spread but big big wood - crane job all the way. I bid $5000 for full removal with full cleanup and disposal of debris. The low bid was $400.

By now, you're guessing that the winner of the bid was this hack with no PPE, no truck or climbing gear, no insurance, etc, etc. Nope. He's the biggest tree service in the area. He runs a half dozen new International 60' bucket trucks, new grapple loader truck, new Intimidator chippers, new skid loaders - new everything. He makes his money off of utility contracts and apparently keeps his guys busy on the side by doing local contract and residential work for practically free.

He has gotten our city tree removal contract the last four years running by doing the work for a fraction of what other bidders submit. Last year, Asplundh was his only competing bidder. He bid 1/5 of what they did. This year, he took the stump removal contract away from me. He bid was half of mine and I was the next lowest bidder. Everyone else was way higher yet.

All it takes is one lowballer, for whatever his reasons, to destroy the market for everybody else. Apparently, the guy I'm talking about gets paid a lot of money to do utility work so, why does he have to destroy the residential market for everybody else unless his plan is to drive us all out so he can then have a monopoly and jack up his prices... :monkey:

It's a good thing my business focus is on pruning and light removals. I can make money on hourly pruning work around here but there's just no profit in bidding removal jobs - not unless it's a job the big guys can't get to with their big trucks - then, I can come in with my small equipment and make a fair profit. But, as for the big removals, I won't even bid them anymore.

In regards to that guy who's ruining the biz for everyone in your area: I think it's time to call one of the boys from Chicago to come to your town and explain to Mr. Near-Freebie the error of his ways. If he cracks wise, he'll be sleeping with the fishes!

 

[arbor pro]

In regards to that guy who's ruining the biz for everyone in your area: I think it's time to call one of the boys from Chicago to come to your town and explain to Mr. Near-Freebie the error of his ways. If he cracks wise, he'll be sleeping with the fishes!

Interestingly enough, just last night my wife and I were watching a program about the mob. Scary stuff that goes on in some cities.

I'm not losing too much sleep about losing the big removal contracts to this guy. I keep busy with pruning and it pays well. Still, a few other tree services that would like to do more removals, would agree with you in sinking this guy to the bottom of a lake.

(Personally, I think you might want to lay off of watching the Sopranos for awhile).

 

[tree md]

Your price sounds pretty much right on to me considering the difficulty level of staging and access. About a year and a half ago I did three trees around 3' dbh. A large Hackberry and 2 large Silver Maples. The hackberry swooped over the house and had a couple of split leaders. One of the Maples was rotten and hollow all the way up to the top with a cavity halfway through the spar at breast height. It was also dangerously close to the high lines with no TIP to speak of except for one that would swing you into the power lines. The third maple sprawled over the HO's house and the neighbor's house with a service drop running through it (had the power company drop the line during the removal). All trees had to be lifted over the house. I bid $10.5 on that job and got it. However, I had reasonable access, plenty of room to stage and work and was able to get the crane out of there in 12 hours (10 hours on the job and 2 hours travel time). ##### of a job, had to spend 10 hours on my spikes to get the crane out of there in a day but I walked away with a cool $7500 in profit. Got a lot of the wood out the first day but had to come back a second day and load the rest of the logs.

 

[tree md]

Most often i just bid high and walk away on those, like you figuring I will not get it. The past few years I will call a few of my associates who do mostly huge removals and get them in on it. It can usually shave off a few grand that way.

Me too!

 

[John464]

Id put 3k a day on it and add whatever the crane fee is. Should be able to have it done in two days, no?

You are going to need atleast 4 big trucks w/ 12ft-18ft debris body dumps on site for wood haul off. This isnt a job for the guys with one truck. No hack would get this job in my neck of the woods, the ones with the equipment and staff to blow it out in no time are the ones who can do it and make a good profit.

Id bid it for 4k a day since my crane rental would be 1k a day. So id probably be around 8k total.

 

[TreeTopKid]

Most often i just bid high and walk away on those, like you figuring I will not get it. The past few years I will call a few of my associates who do mostly huge removals and get them in on it. It can usually shave off a few grand that way.


That's right, and let them use the monkeys if they so wish, and if they want you to do it you get well paid. I've thought I priced jobs 'out of the water' and been pleasantly surprised when I got the go ahead. If the money is there it puts time firmly on your side.

 

[treeclimber101]

Id put 3k a day on it and add whatever the crane fee is. Should be able to have it done in two days, no?

You are going to need atleast 4 big trucks w/ 12ft-18ft debris body dumps on site for wood haul off. This isnt a job for the guys with one truck. No hack would get this job in my neck of the woods, the ones with the equipment and staff to blow it out in no time are the ones who can do it and make a good profit.

Id bid it for 4k a day since my crane rental would be 1k a day. So id probably be around 8k total.

in my neck of the woods the price go from 900 a day to 3000 big grey area but i see alot of good companies sitting in the shop and everyone else is working. yesterday i looked at 4 white pines in the wires street side and 1 blowdown 1.5 days and i said 3500 and got laughed at, someone else said 2000 and another was 1500 and he was willing to negotiate

 

[treeclimber101]

I am wondering what you guys would charge for this, in your neck of the woods: Two American Elms, well into their downward mortality spirals. Both are between two houses with only twelve feet separating those houses. They are about fifteen feet from each other. DBH of each is 48"+. Four main leaders on each with about sixty-five running feet to each leader. Smaller branches are breaking off all over the place and one went through the client's roof during the last storm down here. If you know American Elms, these are the typical super-spread ones. Each one spans about one hundred feet. They overlap at about fifty feet up.

I am going to need to crane both out, and there is no great place to stage them. Also, the road the houses are on is super busy and narrow. It is almost impossible to even pull out of these houses because of the non-stop traffic.

This may turn out to be the removal from (censored). I'll get peter-panned up to the tops and then rig out on the jib. I'm not even sure that we can set trailers in the narrow driveways, since the crane will need the space, if it even fits. Forget chipping. Most of the wood is over 30" with a good percentage being wider than that.

Oh yeah, sprinkler systems are on the lawns where the crane and/or spars are bound to crush them.

The weight of the trees have been high-balled at 100 tons, for the two.

I am coming up with a spread of $12-15,000, including the crane. I get the bad feeling that our monkeys with chainsaws will bid the job at around $3,000 and just climb up the trees with no PPE and no ropes as they like to do, down here, to show off their great machismo (stupidity). There is no way I'm trusting my life to these elms by climbing them as they rot away, but that usually never stops the monkeys.

Anyway, I'm just curious how you "see" this gig. Yeah, I can get some pictures up here later today, after I meet with the crane guys. Until then, what are your gut feelings about price?

unfortunately this is the it is for everyone a saturation of tree companies, not enough work to go around,and customers who will take a chance to save money . not a good scenario for medium size companies.

 

[teamtree]

bid it for what you need and if you don't get it....don't sweat it...drive by and laugh it up.

I did a similar job recently and bid it a little low and wish I would have put it where I needed it. As it turned out...I was the only bidder or the low bidder and we came out just at break-even but no profit for our rainy days.

 

[treeclimber101]

bid it for what you need and if you don't get it....don't sweat it...drive by and laugh it up.

I did a similar job recently and bid it a little low and wish I would have put it where I needed it. As it turned out...I was the only bidder or the low bidder and we came out just at break-even but no profit for our rainy days.

yea and the homeowner didn,t tell me until after i gave my estimate that the other guy would match and beat any written est. i wish that i knew that first i would have said 500 bucks lol

 

[tree md]

3k a day wouldn't cut it here. Crane rental for the job I mentioned in my previous post was over $2400 for the 12 hours I was billed (that's with a fuel sircharge billed in). There was another company who bid ahead of me that owned their own crane and they came in substantially higher than me, so the HO said. Just be careful about figuring your crane time correctly. If you can blow it out in a day then your doing pretty good. If you have to use the crane for two days you need to charge accordingly. Got to make sure you don't screw yourself with crane rental.