Biner, Snap or Knot?

[tree md]

Any of you use a biner or a snap on your lowering line?

I remember a debate on here about this topic a few years back but I thought it would be fun to kick the topic around again.

I have recently tied a double locking snap onto one of my older climb/tag lines for the big trees I have been doing lately. I have been using it as a lanyard as I can pull as much line as I need to get around the spar. I just left the snap on there and had my guys send it up to me for a tag line. He loved it. Said he much preferred it over a tied knot as it was easier for him to take it off of the log. He asked me why we don't do the same on the lowering line. I told him because I don't trust it on a lowering line.

I have been doing it forever with a knot and just can't bring myself to use a snap or biner for lowering operations. I have seen others do it that way and I'm sure it's faster but I have always stuck with a running bowline. Sure, on a tag line OK... But not when I've got big weight on the line.

Thoughts/comments?

 

[ozzy42]

Any of you use a biner or a snap on your lowering line?

I remember a debate on here about this topic a few years back but I thought it would be fun to kick the topic around again.

I have recently tied a double locking snap onto one of my older climb/tag lines for the big trees I have been doing lately. I have been using it as a lanyard as I can pull as much line as I need to get around the spar. I just left the snap on there and had my guys send it up to me for a tag line. He loved it. Said he much preferred it over a tied knot as it was easier for him to take it off of the log. He asked me why we don't do the same on the lowering line. I told him because I don't trust it on a lowering line.

I have been doing it forever with a knot and just can't bring myself to use a snap or biner for lowering operations. I have seen others do it that way and I'm sure it's faster but I have always stuck with a running bowline. Sure, on a tag line OK... But not when I've got big weight on the line.

Thoughts/comments?

I have used a snap a few times where all we're doing is small limbs that are just heavy enough that you can't hold onto them.
Other than that,me sticks to me old Rb and,or clove hitch w/2 half hitches.

 

[TonyX3M]

I have used a snap a few times where all we're doing is small limbs that are just heavy enough that you can't hold onto them.
Other than that,me sticks to me old Rb and,or clove hitch w/2 half hitches.

:agree2:
Same here - I can't just make myself trust snap or beaner on heavy stuff

 

[Blakesmaster]

I like the idea of using it for a tag line but like others said, not sure I'd want to trust it on my main lowering line. Also, it's nice to not need to worry about untying a biner in order to recrotch your running line. I worked with a climber years back that had a big snap braided into the end of his 3 strand running line. Always needed to be careful undoing it near windows/wires/etc. that it wouldn't take a swing as soon as it left the ground.

 

[mattfr12]

half hitch with a running bow line.

 

[TonyX3M]

half hitch with a running bow line.

If you have a fork- seen coupla of climbers trying that on smooth-bark trees and an running bow line lets them go - it might be a personal opinion but for me it is always a glove hitch if you are in doubt

 

[tree md]

I like a clove hitch with a half hitch backing it up on slick bark trees or pieces where I have no nub or crook to set my knot over to help catch the piece. Got to be careful though, I've heard more than a couple of guys say they've had a clove hitch roll out on them. Personally, I only use it on relatively light limbs. I used to use it on chunks but no longer do so. I use a running bowline and a half hitch on all chunks that I lower.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I used to like sling and carabiner for rigging. then I got tired of labor grade groundies having problems figuring out how to open them up, all day long. So I came up with the "daisey-chain bo'lin" Sort of a highwayman's knot, one pull of the tail releases it, easy to work with in winter gloves.

Start as if you are going to tie a running bo'lin, but tuck a couple bights into each other instead.

I've posted pictures in the past.

The thing i don't like about snaps is the wear on the line, I've seen a couple part under load.


The half-hitch or marl before a terminal knot is good practice on larger loads, or where you are unsure of set. Multiple marls works well when rigging out large deadwood in a critical area, since the marl is an overhand knot, it will hold onto wood that breaks.

I will also use a marl if I am rigging out multiple limbs in a tight LZ, say you want a whole top out, but the spread will not fit between house and trunk; marl the first few limbs and a terminal hitch of your choice at the end.

Cutting sequence is situational, but usually from the terminal knot up the line.

 

[beowulf343]

If you have a fork- seen coupla of climbers trying that on smooth-bark trees and an running bow line lets them go - it might be a personal opinion but for me it is always a glove hitch if you are in doubt

I'd argue that one with you. We do alot of ice storm damage throughout the winter, running bowline has never slipped on me, have had problems with the clove on ice. If i'm worried about the bowline slipping, just throw in a marl.

Running bowline all the time for us, marl added if concerned.

 

[tree md]

I used to like sling and carabiner for rigging. then I got tired of labor grade groundies having problems figuring out how to open them up, all day long. So I came up with the "daisey-chain bo'lin" Sort of a highwayman's knot, one pull of the tail releases it, easy to work with in winter gloves.

Start as if you are going to tie a running bo'lin, but tuck a couple bights into each other instead.

I've posted pictures in the past.

The thing i don't like about snaps is the wear on the line, I've seen a couple part under load.


The half-hitch or marl before a terminal knot is good practice on larger loads, or where you are unsure of set. Multiple marls works well when rigging out large deadwood in a critical area, since the marl is an overhand knot, it will hold onto wood that breaks.

I will also use a marl if I am rigging out multiple limbs in a tight LZ, say you want a whole top out, but the spread will not fit between house and trunk; marl the first few limbs and a terminal hitch of your choice at the end.

Cutting sequence is situational, but usually from the terminal knot up the line.

I'd be interested in seeing your variation of the RB, got a link to the pic?

I never thought about using a half hitch when lowering multiple limbs. I have always used a clove hitch and terminated with a running bowline. Seems like the marl or half hitch would be very apt to roll out?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

I'd be interested in seeing your variation of the RB, got a link to the pic?

I never thought about using a half hitch when lowering multiple limbs. I have always used a clove hitch and terminated with a running bowline. Seems like the marl or half hitch would be very apt to roll out?

A marl is an overhand knot, a half-hitch can capsize and drop the load.

I have them somewhere, got a vid camera to now, but no time to shoot & edit.

here is one in the AS archive

As tied here, when the tail is pulled it will become an overhand, If I tuck the tail back under the working rope it will open completely.

 

[tree md]

Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try.

OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?

 

[TonyX3M]

I like a clove hitch with a half hitch backing it up on slick bark trees or pieces where I have no nub or crook to set my knot over to help catch the piece. Got to be careful though, I've heard more than a couple of guys say they've had a clove hitch roll out on them. Personally, I only use it on relatively light limbs. I used to use it on chunks but no longer do so. I use a running bowline and a half hitch on all chunks that I lower.

If you ever heard (I never did) of clove hitch rolling down is stupidity [(it has to be tied correctly of course) which a lot of newer climbers cant do]- running bowline has only a half (if not less) grip- latter one you should use only (!) if you got a crotch to tie it behind!
Cut some 1,5 ton pieces on that - never had a problem
:chainsawguy:

 

[Grace Tree]

Here's a 50kN biner we straightened on a recent rigging fiasco that went very badly. We've used 9/16" Stablebraid with spiced eye and steel biners the last 3 or 4 years and continue to use that setup with confidence. We've always rigged accordingly in weight. This was catastrophic loading causing the sharp edge of the straightened biner latch to cut the rope. I don't think a knot would have saved this one. 'Hurts me to even think about it.
Phil

 

[TonyX3M]

Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try.

OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?=QUOTE]

It is basically the separated clove hitch - if you put two wraps really close to each other it would be- what the actual name is for it - don't know

 

[TonyX3M]

Very creative John. I'm gonna give that one a try.

OK, here is the knot I tie to back up my rigging knots. I'm not good with names. Marl, overhand, half hitch?

That is a separated clove hitch

 

[tree md]

Not a clove hitch. It's probably hard to tell in the last pic. It's basically just 1 turn around the standing part of the line. I'm terrible with the names of knots. I know how to tie them but often don't know the proper name.

Anyway, you can probably tell better in this pic:

 

[TonyX3M]

:agree2: its not - but by looks of it it does same job -dont know how to call it either - btw did you guys seen pix of that biner? - holy crap!

 

[Nailsbeats]

I use krabs (aka knotless rigging) for lowering most of my limbs, then go to a running bow (w/ half hitch if needed) for the logs or anything that may impact. I like the krab on the end of the rope because its faster, easy to clip on your belt as you go out on a limb to set it, won't pull through a block or pulley, and it throws nice.

Just like anything, you need to know the gears limitations and when to deploy it.

 

[Job Corps Tree]

Biner,Snap or Knot

The only time we use a Biner is when the ground'y can't untie a Knot