blocking down onto tiles/pavers

[imagineero]

Just thought I'd pass this one along. We get jobs sometimes with a tree (usually a palm) smack in the middle of tile city with nowhere to block down to, its often tall, and I hate negative rigging blocks down. Sometimes you can throw them in the pool (not as silly as it sounds if the owner agrees) but for those rare situations with no landing zone I've had good luck with ply. I get a couple sheets of 8'x4' 1" thick and have them cut it in half so you get 4 sheets of 4'x4' screwed together adds up to 4" thick. it's amazing what you can block down onto that sort of density and do zero damage to tiles/pavers. They seem to last a long time, but I always make a crash pad on top with the fronds to stop bounce. You could use the same idea on lawns but I dont work with people who are fussy about their lawns.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Or you could just learn how to do tree work. Negative rigging is far faster, safer and easier if you have a clue.

 

[matdand]

I've had a couple of trees that we're pretty sketchy so I didn't want to bloc down large wood. I picked up a dozen old tires and made a crash pas with brush over it. Worked good.

 

[imagineero]

Or you could just learn how to do tree work. Negative rigging is far faster, safer and easier if you have a clue.

Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed, and you might want to rethink that statement. If you seriously believe you can set a pulley, make a scarf, tie a rope in, make a back cut, lower off, untie and have the rope sent back up to you in less time than I can bomb down then a clue is the first thing you need to find. Not to mention that negative rigging is one of the most dangerous rigging scenarios, exposing yourself to the risk of the rope stalling and ending up with the block slamming you in the ankles breaking your legs. Blocking down is always the way to go for speed and safety, lack of landing zone is the only reason why you'd consider negative rigging.

 

[Blakesmaster]

...lack of landing zone is the only reason why you'd consider negative rigging.

Lol. I thought that's what we were talking about. Negative rigging allows you to go bigger in tight places and move the wood out quicker with a machine. Cutting and chucking small pieces is 101 ****.

 

[imagineero]

Lol. I thought that's what we were talking about. Negative rigging allows you to go bigger in tight places and move the wood out quicker with a machine. Cutting and chucking small pieces is 101 ****.

Oh I see.... so you were going to run your mini over the lawn up the stairs, crush the pool fence and wreck the tiles and that's how you were going to make up for all the lost time in negative blocking? Or were you going to layout ply all across the lawn, remove the side gate, then fence, and the pool fence, then run the mini up the side to save that time? You make no sense at all mate. It's horses for courses. Sometimes you can get heavy equipment in, sometimes you can't. Sometimes you can rig out huge sections, sometimes you've got to bomb down smaller stuff. Some jobs just have to be done by hand. Each job is different, and the most efficient way to do a given job changes according to the site. Adding a few extra arrows to your quiver is always a good thing unless you're a one trick pony.

 

[Jed1124]

If you worked with but hitching pieces over more often you would probably become more comforitable with it. Being able to bomb pieces is always great when you can of course but saying you don't want too use a tool or method that the majority of professionals in the industry are using is limiting yourself. If the pieces are being controlled as they are going over there is little chance of them hitting you.

 

[OLD OAK]

I have done a few trees right next to a in ground pools and never though of throwing wood in. Normally I tell the homeowners to put the cover on because there in no way I can keep the the sawdust out.

 

[imagineero]

If you worked with but hitching pieces over more often you would probably become more comforitable with it. Being able to bomb pieces is always great when you can of course but saying you don't want too use a tool or method that the majority of professionals in the industry are using is limiting yourself. If the pieces are being controlled as they are going over there is little chance of them hitting you.

I'll do it when I have to, but negative rigging is not ever going to be faster, safer, or easier than bombing down. Since I want to live a long time, not put myself at risk, and make money... I'm going to go with bombing down! Not to say I never negative rig, but seriously, only if there's no other alternative. There's no harder test of ropes, trees, rigging and groundie skill than negative rigging. Negative rigged blocks put up to 10x the weight of the block at the pulley, and If you're working with a 20% SWL on your ropes that means to take a 500lb hit (seriously not a big hit) for negative rigging, your're putting a 5,000lb hit on the rope at the pulley which would need a rope rated for 25,000 lbs. You're not even getting there at 3/4", and we aren't even talking big hits here. I take those kinds of hits just blocking down.

If you're talking about taking the kind of hits that would warrant a mini, then lets say you're starting at 1,000lbs. So for starters, you're going to need whoopie slings and pulleys rated to 20,000lbs, and a rope with a breaking strain of 50,000lbs. Most of you guys don't have ropes rated anywhere near that kind of strength. If you're taking hits that size on 3/4 or even 1" then you just dont understand CTF and need to have a talk with your rope manufacture which will probably end in you telling him that he doesn't know what he's talking about despite designing and testing the rope.

Butt hitching blocks and reducing the distance between the tie off and the pulley does reduce the force, but not the the extent that you might imagine. Letting it run has the biggest effect, but you can't bank on that as some day the rope may jamb and you don't want to have your life riding on that day after day. Have a read of this and pay particular attention to the data on negative rigging around page 350.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr668.pdf

 

[imagineero]

I have done a few trees right next to a in ground pools and never though of throwing wood in. Normally I tell the homeowners to put the cover on because there in no way I can keep the the sawdust out.

I always insist on removing the cover. Those things are so brittle after years on the sun that a leaf can almost puncture them. A frond from a palm punches straight through easily and leaves a big hole. I'm not willing to risk having to pay for a pool cover ($,$$$) in order to save the owner the trouble of having to clean the pool, particularly if it's a dozen tall palms lining the pool area 4' away and it's a windy day. The way I sell it is "you'll only have to clean the pool one last time". They've doubtless done it any hundreds of times before, so one last time doesn't hurt.

 

[arboristCT]

Hey guys I agree with all of you because everyone works different depending on the situation too. some guys lower everything even when they can just bomb stuff out and some guys cut down log size piece by piece on their way down. To me none methods are wrong as long as nobody gets hurt and as long as its not taking way more time then it should.

 

[KenJax Tree]

I Murph everything i can.....and don't climb anything that can be hit with the bucket....time is money.

 

[imagineero]

Hey guys I agree with all of you because everyone works different depending on the situation too. some guys lower everything even when they can just bomb stuff out and some guys cut down log size piece by piece on their way down. To me none methods are wrong as long as nobody gets hurt and as long as its not taking way more time then it should.

Sounds great, would you like to quantify that with some specs, numbers and appropriate situations for both? Or is "do whatever you like, regardless" the right way to do it?

 

[imagineero]

I Murph everything i can.....and don't climb anything that can be hit with the bucket....time is money.

Ahhhhh Murph. When will it be added to the oxford dictionary?

 

[imagineero]

Now that I think about it, what the hell am I doing on here wasting time arguing about this stuff? Rig it all down, that's the way to go

 

[arboristCT]

Sounds great, would you like to quantify that with some specs, numbers and appropriate situations for both? Or is "do whatever you like, regardless" the right way to do it?

I think most times, which ever way gets done it almost always comes out on the same time.

 

[arboristCT]

I Murph everything i can.....and don't climb anything that can be hit with the bucket....time is money.

well yeah why would someone climb a tree if it can be reached with the bucket, that's if that someone has a bucket truck.

 

[Jed1124]

I'll do it when I have to, but negative rigging is not ever going to be faster, safer, or easier than bombing down. Since I want to live a long time, not put myself at risk, and make money... I'm going to go with bombing down! Not to say I never negative rig, but seriously, only if there's no other alternative. There's no harder test of ropes, trees, rigging and groundie skill than negative rigging. Negative rigged blocks put up to 10x the weight of the block at the pulley, and If you're working with a 20% SWL on your ropes that means to take a 500lb hit (seriously not a big hit) for negative rigging, your're putting a 5,000lb hit on the rope at the pulley which would need a rope rated for 25,000 lbs. You're not even getting there at 3/4", and we aren't even talking big hits here. I take those kinds of hits just blocking down.

If you're talking about taking the kind of hits that would warrant a mini, then lets say you're starting at 1,000lbs. So for starters, you're going to need whoopie slings and pulleys rated to 20,000lbs, and a rope with a breaking strain of 50,000lbs. Most of you guys don't have ropes rated anywhere near that kind of strength. If you're taking hits that size on 3/4 or even 1" then you just dont understand CTF and need to have a talk with your rope manufacture which will probably end in you telling him that he doesn't know what he's talking about despite designing and testing the rope.

Butt hitching blocks and reducing the distance between the tie off and the pulley does reduce the force, but not the the extent that you might imagine. Letting it run has the biggest effect, but you can't bank on that as some day the rope may jamb and you don't want to have your life riding on that day after day. Have a read of this and pay particular attention to the data on negative rigging around page 350.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr668.pdf

Thank you for the resource. Saved to my hard drive for future reference. I took a look at the pages you suggested. Heavy duty stuff. Bombing surely is faster and easier, but the saftey of the things on the ground have to be considered as well. If I win a bid on the fact that I have assured the client that there will be no damage to any of thier property, there can be no damage period. Blocking down a spare that is surrounded by tile would be one of the instances I would say you need to negative rig even if it is something you would prefer not to do. When properly done with the right rope and equipment for the size pieces that are being taken, there is little risk. Have you been in a scenario where you are someone you know was injured butt hitching down a spare? I'm just curious as your aversion to it is pretty uncommon. But then again you might know something that I don't.

 

[Jed1124]

I Murph everything i can.....and don't climb anything that can be hit with the bucket....time is money.

I wish Murph was still here. The guy was fun.

 

[Blakesmaster]

Now that I think about it, what the hell am I doing on here wasting time arguing about this stuff? Rig it all down, that's the way to go

I know, right? Now that you figured out the throwing wood into the pool method there's nothing you can learn from the rest of us. You are obviously a very top-notch guy. LOL