branch collar

[murphy4trees]

Glad to see some healthy discussion on this point...

Once you get the idea of CODIT, it only seems logical to not violate the compartmentalization...

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Forget healthy discussion, I'm here now.
If you cut into living tissue to remove dead, it's time for me too trim your finger nails.
There are some real idiots here...

 

[Gord]

Guy the only reason i would make a cut as i said is for aesthetics. i agree and understand that it is not the healthiest choice for the tree...but if the stub is something that the client is going to notice and be irritated by the look of, i cut it off. i'm not saying i would cut off a 14" ring of callus that protruded an inch past the collar, just salient minor stubs. it would be nice if the tree paid me itself...but sometimes you just gotta work with the people.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I hear ya, Gord. Most customers don't have our mindset!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by Mike Maas
There are some real idiots here...

And now they have a leader?

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Gord
if the stub is something that the client is going to notice and be irritated by the look of, i cut it off. ...but sometimes you just gotta work with the people.

Gord, I hear you on this. A much as I love the sight of irregular-looking burls, I know some people like everything to look "regular". I'm not sure what a "salient minor stub" is, but if you're taking off a thin layer of callus, I am not going to roast you.

(Mike remember what Spyder said; those who preach dogma are saying they're "dogma" backwards, "am god".

If a thick ring like in Murph's earlier picture comes off, then we got problems, no matter how obsessive the client is about looks. Burls are beautiful and mysterious creations, and when collars grow out on stubs that's a baby burl. this is what I'd tell a client who asked for the more flush look. Sometimes you gotta draw the line and try gentle education and refusal to hurt THEIR tree.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Nickrosis
Ach, you won't get Shigo to say that! I've seen him asked that specific question a couple of times, and he responds everytime saying that you should cut at the collar, no closer, no further. It's an ideal that is a micron in width, but it is our target!

I've heard Shigo's response to this question a couple times and I think he does his students a disservice with his response.
Saws are straight, collars are not. Saying to cut at the collar, insures the the collar will be injured. The ultamte goal is to not injure the collar.

The correct response to where the limb should be cut is: as close to the collar as possible without cutting into the collar at all, even though this will leave some wood outside the collar.

Speaking of dogma, I am very sceptical that removing deadwood has any benefit for the health of the tree, as we've discussed before. Looking at the pictures here, should prove most of the deadwood removal is worse than anything a little dead limb could do to a tree.

 

[jkrueger]

doing a check of ...

Originally posted by Gord
I think a bit of discretion is advised when callus growth is creeping out along a stub. Some species' deadwood will hang on an awfully long time, long enough for a lengthy callus-stub to form. when i'm confronted with this i make the cut to my best estimation of the old collar. sometimes a well placed boot makes the best cut, inside the callus. if the callus extends just an inch or two out i'll leave it. it also depends on the size of limb the callus is on of course.

and nick, did you really hear shigo say that?!! with your own ears?

I do avoid cutting any live tissue when removing long stubs. And my original post had to do with a callus-stub that had soft rot going to the trunk. Generaly I would leave it as most would here and I was moved to cut a little further in. Actually closer to the original collar because of the extent of the rot.

It has been a year since that cut. I've always thought about it and to go back to check on it for my own edification. I will do that sometime this week end. I'll take the digi cam up in the tree to get pics. A year may not be enough to tell yet it is an on going observation for me.

Jack

 

[Tom Dunlap]

I have no problem telling clients that the bump left on the tree is the right thing to do. It isn't a stub and I can explain to them that if I cut the bump off it will lead to more decay.

I like MM's analogy about trimming finger nails. Has anyone ever trimmed a pet's nails and gone too far? How do you think that the tree's feel when we cut too far?

Like Wulkie has said, Would we do things different to trees if they had evolved to have saws too?

There is no justification, other than money, to cut off the live portion. Maybe someone can change my mind though.

Tom

 

[jkrueger]

checking on ...

A bit about the tree I mentioned in a previous post; it is a forest tree, a young tulip poplar about 50'. A road had been cut through next to that tree a number of years ago and they dozed a mound of soil high up on one side of the tree and had damaged one of the larger lower branches, which had the rot.

I had found the tree and thought it might serve me to learn some tree saving ideas since it appeared to be declineing.

I had removed the the foot or two of soil at it's base and exposed the root flair. And made a few cuts in the crown, (dead wood). The lower branch that was refered to was about 4" in dia.

I'm going to check on the trees general health this week end and the decision regarding the cut.

Jack

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Cutting the wound wood off of a rotten stub...

It all depends on where the wound wood initiated.

If it started from branch wood (as some of the pic's Dan posted did) then I would cut back to the collar,.

If the wound wood originates from truck wood, then all you are doing is increasing hte sie of the cavity that will form. I joking ly tell be eople I will be creating raccooon habitat for them.

It is a far better thing to stub a little, then to flush at all.

As for Shigo on NTP, he's also said that something like 18% of cuts will not be perfect because the trees do not grow perfect.

 

[jkrueger]

_Deletion_
If it started from branch wood (as some of the pic's Dan posted did) then I would cut back to the collar.

JAK: From the branch, think I choose to leave a little callus and not go right to the collar. I'll see tomorrow what developed.

_Deletion_

As for Shigo on NTP, he's also said that something like 18% of cuts will not be perfect because the trees do not grow perfect.

JAK: Nah, trees are perfect, humans are limited and always have do everything over and over to prhaps someday get it.

Jack

 

[BigJohn]

I am not saying the tree has Cancer. The tree doesn't exactly seal off the rot sure it may seal it in but that doesn't stop it. I know there this chemical barrier at the collar but this doesn't always work. If tree were so good at "sealing" off this rot then then whats up with all the hollow logs. If I don't cut the collar off just flush it at the collar as we have been told by Shigo how is this bad. If it was a live branch we would be cutting live tissue.

I think there is a fine line and we need to look at large number of samples to really clear up this discussion. Each situation requires custom taylored cuts. I agree that some callus should be left alone and others where it allows to cut it back to the collar.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Hollow trees...in my experience most of them are maple or basswood. Two species with poor CODIT characteristics. I've read that hollows form when many decay columns merge. Why would that be? From many wounds or mulitple wounds at the same place.

A metaphor might be to look at the flooding in a drainage system. If many streams flow into one main channel, it floods. Traffic flow during rush hour is another image that comes to mind. The closer to Town Central we drive, the more traffic is found.

When I moved I didn't bring my samples of "interesting wood." In the samples there were some of merged wounds. By counting growth increments I could trace the decay flow.

My Shigo books are still in boxes. I'll bet dollars to donuts that there are answers in his books if you looked for "hollow trees" or "stubs" or "collars" I might go look in the boxes tomorrow.


Tom

 

[Proarbor]

The true measure of an arborist. The percentage of good cuts versus bad. It's a fine line between close enough and to close. All cuts need to be matched to there particular situation as no two trees grow exactly the same. we would all get brain drain if they did !!!!!
:alien:

 

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by BigJohn
I think there is a fine line and we need to look at large number of samples to really clear up this discussion. Each situation requires custom taylored cuts. I agree that some callus should be left alone and others where it allows to cut it back to the collar.

That's already been done for us. We can continue to re-evaluate methods, but the current message is what's being shared by Tom and Guy - that you cut to the collar and avoid live tissue. If you don't you're compromising the tree. This is all based on research of hundreds of sacrificed trees and branches. I've done it myself, too.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by BigJohn
I am not saying the tree has Cancer. The tree doesn't exactly seal off the rot sure it may seal it in but that doesn't stop it.

How do you know without being inside the tree? Often it does.
Each situation requires custom taylored cuts. I agree that some callus should be left alone and others where it allows to cut it back to the collar.

I agree, but it's rare imo for the callus to be so weak and the rot so bad that callus needs to be removed.

Let's define our term: ANSI ($15.--buy it!) calls a branch collar "The swollen area at the base of a branch." Now follow me closely on this one, and see if it makes sense. When callus grows past the original collar on a dead or dying branch, that is the collar growing. The edge of the callus is now the edge of the collar.

But if this callus is very thin, it is not "swollen", so it is technically not a collar yet. Slicing thin callus off back to a more swollen ring of tissue in order to remove a lot of decay or to leave a much better-angled cut may be the right thing to do, but it is rare. Any time the callus is thick it is swollen and should not be cut.

Tree species, vigor etc play a part in making this call. If you think that the collar may grow faster than the decay, it makes more sense to leave every scrap of callus tissue. If not, not. O and TD, red maples in NC seem to be very good at CODIT, so let's not dis the genus Acer, ok?

The ugly cuts murph showed earlier were not of callus, but of woundwood (A New Tree Biology, p. 599). When the collar is this thick it is a huge no-no to remove any of it. And since collars are trunk tissue it seldom makes sense to injure them. (ANTB p. 212)

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

We need to get past the idea that if a tree has an area of decay, that removing it will somehow strengthen the barriers the tree set up to stop decay from advancing.
Cutting can only injure the CODIT barriers, it cannot make them stronger.

 

[murphy4trees]

We need to get past the idea that if a tree has an area of decay, that removing it will somehow strengthen the barriers the tree set up to stop decay from advancing. Cutting can only injure the CODIT barriers, it cannot make them stronger.

This perfectly sums up my thinking..... Pretty simple and unarguable in my mind..

 

[jkrueger]

Always begining at the scientific knowledge behind correct pruning is a place to start. And saying that there is 'rule' by which we approach all circumstances is forgeting the deeper awareness that can be achieved by studying our own work. And checking on many examples at least once a year. I think that anyone involved in this thread is one of those arborists.

To me the rules are important also, so that there are guide lines for those not sensitive to the subject.

There are many bonzi techniques that should be looked at scientificaly and correlated to bring in advantages in extending our pallet of working knowledge.

Let's be as truthful about our own independent study as well as saluting those that have given direction to the deeper awareness of life, trees. Like Tom's collection of unusual example of real material. We should incourage more of that, ya?

Jack