Brits talkin about Brit stuff

[blue]

anyone here from cumbria or know any tree co's in the area as i'm lookin at movin up that way

 

[teressa green]

try do a search on yell.com should think rural location would be poor wages ,agricultural wages ,,,,,:monkey:

 

[nohope]

Well I'm glad arbnews got a reaction, to be honest I would have been more worried if there had been nothing coming back from you guys.
Domestic users, nope sorry cannot do a thing, we enforce the health and safety AT WORK act 1974
Top handles yes if you get caught using them on the ground then we will slap you for it. I've heard all the arguments and whatever the competance of people in here there are too many cowboys out there who don't know what they are doing, and we have a history of people taking their own arms off. HSE policy is as stated - top handle in the tree only. Stihl at least do a rear handle the same size and weight that I know a few people use.
Pete, though I appear to take the rap for HSE nationally in here I am based in West Yorkshire and take the lead on arb around here. The only way HSE can do anything about the white vans is if we get to here about them. Can't always promise to get out, but if it is humanly possible I will. Beats sitting at this desk, and is better than office visits.

 

[iain]

top handles

Pete

i agree entirley ,but the up shot is they can't do anything with regards to the purchase its a trading standards job

i quote from an email from hse

Principal Inspector.
As suspected we cannot
do anything about E bay selling this equipment. The legislation states the
user, when in a work situation, must be competent to use the equipment and
not the purchaser. I do understand your frustration. Perhaps it may be
worth contacting trading standards to see if they can do anything

too many Gov't department and not one of them can sort out this loop hole

the hse can do anyone caught using one in a work situation without cs39
which aint very likely
as everytime i've phoned them about a rogue, its the same answer SORRY NOone's available

maybe im just sceptical but i beleive that the rogues are indirectly
protected because the arent easily traced 'bodge it ripoff n scarper'
moral of the story is one step forward for a 'kick in the head' then two steps back so : ditch any sign righting an yell ads employ twelve year olds to flyer for you and make a mint !!!! oh n don't pay any tax !!!

 

[clearance]

Guys, why all the whining about top handled saws, using them on the ground, being sold to the "wrong" people, etc.? Do you not have to much government control as it is, you want more? I climb trees in the bush (Yes the mighty forests of British Columbia), we all use ms200 or 020 saws, our groundsman uses one too. We climb, he uses his to get branches that have fallen into creeks, it is also our spare saw. We often walk a 1/4 to 1/2 mile over logging slash or through the bush, many times we are cutting a trail. Look, no one is going to buy a tophandled saw to use much on the ground, I would rather be making a trail with a 372xp but I have to carry my gear, that with my ms200 is enough. You guys phone in people who are using 020s on the ground, tsk,tsk. Mind your own business, surely there must be more important issues to concern yourselves with. Cheers.

 

[clearance]

Pete, o.k., I see what is getting you, unfair competition. I have worked and work now for a company that is legit, all treeguys do foriegners (Isn't that the term?) or buzz jobs as we call them on the side. What you are talking about is someone running an actual business, pretending to be on the up and up on a full time basis. I understand your frustration, paying liability and employee ins., bookkeeping, taxes etc. right of the top. The way the law is setup, if only the qualified could buy 020s then they would have to climb with something else. If the laws were enforced only those with proper training could then climb. The huge majority of people here get an absolute minimal lack of training to run a saw. You kind of figure it out and watch others. By doing everything right you are protecting yourself, when your nieghbor takes out a powerline, damages a house or someone gets killed, he is up the creek, maybe without a paddle. My main point is that experienced treeguys should be able (like here) to use 020s wherever they want. I use mine on the ground, in a tree, with one hand sometimes, no big deal.

 

[clearance]

Pete, how close is Huddersfield to you? I was born there but have lived in Canada since I was 4 (1972). Yeah, those little saws are nasty if they get away on you, I really try hard never to be where a kickback will get me, some people here do not understand this concept. They talk about safety chain, smaller saws etc., missing the point that anything will kick. You are right, it isn't a very forgiving job. When I come over there to visit the relis I should bring my belt and spurs and go on a clearcutting,hammer down, big removal job for someone. Probably horrify you guys.

 

[clearance]

That is too funny. Can't remember where I lived, I was just a pup. My grandparents live real close to Beamont Park, nice place, my dad used to work for David Brown, my grandpa at ICI. At least everything there is built out of stone or brick. A stone wall that has stood for hundreds of years can take a little branch hit. I was back in 99, my dad and uncle live in Kendal now. And your buddy got 60 stitches from an 020, wow, I didn't get that many from a 266xp, but it took years to get the power and feeling back in my arm. Cheers mate, me name is Jim

 

[clearance]

That park is very cool, our parks won't look like that for a long time. I will ask about that name. When I am there people always think I'm American, sometimes I would put on a real accent and pull thier leg. Y'all talk kinda funny in this little town, y'all ken hardly speak English.

 

[nohope]

Iain, I'm sorry that you have got that response from us in the past, though to be honest I am not that surprised. Please don't give up though, there are some of us in HSE that take arb work seriously.
To all of you in the UK as I have said before I quite honestly get sick of visits to decent outfits that are easy to find, the reason I do this job, and take an interest in arb, is because I want to sort out those who are, well less considered in their approach to the work. This is not easy and either relies on me driving round on the off chance of catching someone at work or getting a bit of help about where it may be profitable to drive past. It does make life easier to have a bit of notice and it does make life easier to have contact details for the outfit (where possible, I know). The thing to remember when reporting anything is to make it clear that you are concerned about a work at height issue and give your details and ask to be kept informed about what happens.

 

[iain]

rogues

Nohope

not trying to tell you how to suck eggs but--
i'd try an ad in the local free paper asking for the public to grass em up
or ask 'help the aged' to collect flyers from there members or look in the newspaper for the words 'discounts for oap's'

these parasites target the oldies because in the main they are, to polite to complain about a ????e job, usually pay in cash and are out of touch with what should go on in the work place.

also may i suggest the hse consider issuing a template risk assesment(idiots guide) to incorporate the reems of rules, for us guys to get to grips with ?

 

[wradman]

toppin

here's one you might like if i can get this pic to work i'm new to this site

 

[Acer]

Top handles yes if you get caught using them on the ground then we will slap you for it. I've heard all the arguments and whatever the competance of people in here there are too many cowboys out there who don't know what they are doing, and we have a history of people taking their own arms off. HSE policy is as stated - top handle in the tree only. Stihl at least do a rear handle the same size and weight that I know a few people use.

This is what annoys me, people who have got half a brain and who use the equipment properly suffering because of the actions of those who haven't got a clue. The people most likely to injure themselves with top handled saws on the ground are those who use them one handed, especially the idiots who saw with one hand and hold the material with the other. They probably don't know that they're banned on the ground, and probably wouldn't care anyway. They probably don't know who or what the HSE are.

For the job I had in mind, trimming stake tops on my hedges, a risk assessment would show that my 020T is the most suitable tool for this job. This particular situation has a low risk of kickback, and of all the tools I own, the lightest power saw I have would carry the lowest risk of musculoskeletal discomfort/injury. On this last point, I suspect that a top handled saw would be better than a rear handled one of equivalent weight in this particular situation - I do have an MSc. in Ergonomics, so I know what I'm talking about! Yet, because of this blanket ban, we aren't allowed to apply our experience/intelligence/qualifications to assess the situation and select the best tool for the job.

Sorry to sound like a Daily Mail reader, but I really do think that health & safety legislation and regulation has got out of hand.

 

[clearance]

Acer- I one hand a 020 constantly, in or out of the tree, they are made for one handing. I once one handed a 288xp with a 32" bar over my head as high as I could reach to trim the side of a laurel hedge. Took me about 5 minutes, no big deal, wasn't working for a landscaping outfit, didn't have a hedge trimmer. I guess that would take the cake for "idiot" huh? Like people have said here if you make something idiot proof they will just make a better idiot.

 

[Acer]

Acer- I one hand a 020 constantly, in or out of the tree, they are made for one handing. .

I re-read my post above. I know some people are more comfortable about using these saws one handed than others. The area of one handed use that makes me wince every time I see it is when people cut with one hand and hold with the other, so I've changed my post a bit to reflect this. OK, if people do dangerous things, they may or may not get hurt, and it would have been their chioce. Unfortunately, in the UK at the moment, other folks' less sensible choices affect us all, as the people churning out the legislation and guidelines react to injuries statistics that arise as a consequence. The upshot is that we all get swamped by the red tape as safety officials and the like try to micromanage our jobs from behind their desks.

 

[puwer]

Acer,

Have you written a risk assessment looking at the use of a top handled saw for the operation you intend?

The PUWER regs are some of your red tape in this case, REG 4 suitability of work equipment does state that employers shall ensure that work equipment is used only for operations for which, and under conditions for which, it is suitable.

In this regulation "suitable" means suitable in any respect which it is resonably foreseeable will affect the health or safety of any person.

If you belive that the top handled saw is the best equipment to use then you will obviously have to put the work in to prove this, personally i think you would struggle even with a very indepth RA and supporting safe system of work, i can already begin to think of the counter arguements against it. Especially when you look at suitable control measures for a highlighted hazard and the risk level.

Section 2 (2) (a) of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 requires the provision and maintenance of safe systems of work that are, so far as is reasonably practicable, safe without risks to health.
Where a Risk Assessment has identified that certain hazards cannot be eliminated and risk factors remain during the task, a safe system of work will be required.
Safe Method of Work Statements (Method Statements), are one way in which Safe Systems of Work can be formally defined and recorded, enabling the employer to fulfil his legal obligations through providing information and instruction to his employees whilst keeping a formal record of Company Safety Management.
Method Statements provide a sequence for carrying out an identified task safely and they usually contain more detail than Risk Assessments.

 

[clearance]

Cut and hold, cut and chuck, cut and push tops, no big deal. Acer, if you want to trim this hedge with your 020, just do it. Have a rear handle saw on scene just in case you cut yourself, then lie and say you were using it. This over regulation about saws and the over regulation everwhere saddens me. Enough already, when does it end?, these people will keep making more rules up just so they have a job. Anything but the work, most of these jokers wouldn't know what hard work was if it bit them on the ass. "An expert is a man who needs a map to push a wheelbarrow around a corner" Gordon Gibson

 

[Acer]

Acer,

Have you written a risk assessment looking at the use of a top handled saw for the operation you intend?

The PUWER regs are some of your red tape in this case, REG 4 suitability of work equipment does state that employers shall ensure that work equipment is used only for operations for which, and under conditions for which, it is suitable.

In this regulation "suitable" means suitable in any respect which it is resonably foreseeable will affect the health or safety of any person.

If you belive that the top handled saw is the best equipment to use then you will obviously have to put the work in to prove this, personally i think you would struggle even with a very indepth RA and supporting safe system of work, i can already begin to think of the counter arguements against it. Especially when you look at suitable control measures for a highlighted hazard and the risk level.

I'm sure I could make a good case for using a top handled saw over a rear handled one of the same weight (If just weight were the issue, I'm sure the H&S solution would be to run out and spend another £500 on a rear handled version of the 020, even though I have a perfectly good 020T sitting in my workshop!). In fact, I believe that this very specific job would be safer when using a top handled saw - my issue is that I would still be hammered regardless, whatever risk assessment I had done (see nohope's comments previously). For this job, I am forced to use a tool that is less safe by legislation that is supposed to protect my safety! . The discussion is below, so if anyone is bored with this already, then stop reading now!

The issue with top handled saws is less ability to maintain control in the event of a kickback cf, a rear handled saw, even if the saw is being held with both hands (although I would like to know how many people injure themselves with a top handled saw when holding them properly with two hands cf. one hand only). In the situation I'm thinking of, the kickback risk is low - and lower if I were using a top handled saw compared to a rear handled saw of similar weight. At the level I am cutting at, the only things to kick back from would be stake tops spaced at 18". Kickback would occur if I hit one of those stakes or another part of the hedge with the kickback zone of the bar nose, and this would probably happened if I stumbled during the operation, if I lost concentration and misjudged the position of the bar, or if my control was reduced through, say, fatigue. The first two would be equally likely whatever saw I was using, the last would be more likely with a rear handled saw. In the position I am using the saw, at around chest height, arm fatigue sets in quickly, especially the left arm. A light saw reduces this problem, but a light top handled design is even better, because the design of the top handle allows the right hand to make more of a contribution to supporting the weight of the saw. Try holding a 020T in your right hand at chest height with the top handle, then try it again with an 020 (rear handled version of 020T), holding the saw with the rear handle, right hand only. Which is easier? Not that you'd use it like this, I'm just saying that you can support the weight of the top handled saw with both hands rather than mainly with the left hand, so the saw is more comfortable to use in this situation. Also, you can stand a little closer to the work when using a top handled design, as there is no rear handle in the way. The saw is nearer to the body, reducing arm fatigue and also reducing lower back stress (and, incidentally, improving chances of controlling a kickback). Because of these factors, the risk of kickback through reduced control due to fatigue is lower. So, even if the consequences of a kickback with a top handled saw were more severe, the chance of the kickback happening in the first place would be lower than with a similar rear handled saw.

Then, we can consider the control measures; safety devices fitted to the saw (ie inertia activated chain brake), and positioning of body parts out of the path of a kickback - it would be hard to do this particular job standing in the kickback danger area. If we did have a kickback, it is very likely that the chain would be stopped, providing that the inertia chain brake were functioning properly, and that the chain would not make contact with body parts anyway.

Kickback aside, there are other health hazards involved here, and I've explained about arm fatigue. Pain & discomfort in the arms and hands are precursors to more long term work related upper limb disorders. I can recover from pain by stopping work for a bit and changing my posture, but a condition such as tendonitis or carpal tunnel syndrome is more permanent. Although more long term and less dramatic than a kickback cut or amputation, it is still a risk that needs to be assessed and controlled, and here I believe the top handled saw wins out.

Finally, there is always the possibility of using a manual tool, such as a silky saw. If I did this, I would need to support the stake or top of the hedge to stop it moving, so I am putting my left hand into the danger area straight
away. A cut from a silky can be quite severe - not as severe as a chainsaw cut could be, but, in this situation, a lot more likely. When we assess risk, we often regard it as the chance of something happening X severity of consequences. Using a hand saw here, I'd say the chance of a cut is a lot higher than when using a chainsaw (both hands on the chainsaw, of course!), but the consequences are less severe, assuming no life threatening infection follows. With the chainsaw, lower likelihood X greater severity. So which is riskiest? Myself, I'd say risk is lower with the chainsaw; after each day's chainsaw use, I have, so far remained unscathed, but I have cut myself several times when using a pruning saw (I'm not the only one - there's a whole thread dedicated to this somewhere) But again, this judgement is subjective.

Mind you, perhaps, using the hand tool is the way forward. If I used hand tools, everything would take 10 times as long, and I would eventually go out of business. If I'm out of work, I cannot have an accident at work. Mission accomplished, HSE!!

 

[Nickrosis]

No plane ticket yet...

But I'll be in the UK around October.

 

[clearance]

Acer-no comment on my post? Argueing, rationalizing, reasoning, why? Just do it, for christs sake, no wonder Britain lost its way, wankers in meetings, talking endlessly about crap instead of doing the work, they produce nothing, help no one. Don't worry about it, its happening here as well, guys in white hardhats, walking around jobs looking like twats while the men are doing the work. C'mon son, live a little.