Building roads in wetlands

[Jim Timber]

Steve, you're not well informed on MN land laws.

We have a law that anyone with more than 2.5 acres is REQUIRED to be provided useful access to their property. If the county won't allow wetland damage, an easement will be provided. Compensation is whatever the township says it is, and I do have to pay the affected landowners, as I then become owner of that turf.

Look up "cart ways."

Some of you jr legal scholars might want to dispute this - have at it. The case law states that if I owned land along a road, but the access was up a cliff, that I would be granted an easement through other's property.

I'm land locked other than through my swamp.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Steve, you're not well informed on MN land laws.

We have a law that anyone with more than 2.5 acres is REQUIRED to be provided useful access to their property. If the county won't allow wetland damage, an easement will be provided. Compensation is whatever the township says it is, and I do have to pay the affected landowners, as I then become owner of that turf.

Look up "cart ways."

Some of you jr legal scholars might want to dispute this - have at it. The case law states that if I owned land along a road, but the access was up a cliff, that I would be granted an easement through other's property.

I'm land locked other than through my swamp.

Like I said, good luck getting it done by condemnation, as you've just stated you have "useful access" - it may be more expensive, but it is doable.

 

[OlympicYJ]

As I understood it the swamp would not qualify as useful access because the govt won't allow him to go through the swamp if there is an alternative route. Therefore it would qualify under the law he is quoting for condemnation because he is thereby landlocked and greater than 2.5 acres. That's how I understand it. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Jim Timber]

TEP panel's current position is to find another access. The township now gets to decide where that access goes.

I've been dealing with these people off and on for over a year. The next step is a formal petition for access.

Neighbor on the east wants over 30K for an unimproved wooded lot (2.5 acres) on the cul de sac. He flat refused 20k - which to me is still obscene for what it is. I may have to pay that in the end, but I'm moving forward with the township. I have no interest in that lot other than driving through it, so that's the path I'm pursuing.

 

[Jim Timber]

Fyi: TEP panel is comprised of County wetlands manager, DNR, county soil and water, and state environmentalist.

County wetlands guy and I are on the same page, and he oversee's the panel. I can have my driveway there, but they don't want trucks on that road. So since I need another access for logging, I'll leave the swamp alone.

 

[Steve NW WI]

If I were your adjoining landowner, I'd fight tooth and nail, and likely win. You have "useful access" to your property. Maybe not easy access to your home site, but useful access to the property nonetheless. Your log truck argument doesn't hold water in my book, even the most primitive 2 track across the swamp will be just fine in winter when the ground is frozen.

Near as I can tell, you weaseled the town into abandoning one road that gave you access, wanted to build your road across your swamp until you found out it'd cost good money to do it right, then decided you should have access across someone else's hard earned property to make your life easier.

I'm sure your neighbors already know this, but you're the reason those of us who've spent our lives in the country despise people who come out from the city, buy some land, and expect everything to happen exactly how they want it.

Thanks to ole BO getting re elected, people like you who'd rather have the government do it for them than earn something should have a nice next four years. Enjoy.

PS - I did do some reading on "cartways" - specifically this legal brief: http://www.township.guthrie.mn.us/Road_Bridge/Understanding Cartways - 13pages.pdf and I stick by my original assessment.

 

[slowp]

Roads to get logs out do not have to be a permanent fixture. You can try to make amends with your neighbor, put in the minimum standard of road needed to just get logs out, and after logging, repair fences, feelings, and block off the road. It might be good to be on good terms with your neighbors, regardless of "rights".

Some good loggers I have worked with, were able to haul on shorter routes, because they would visit the adjacent landowner, sometimes bringing a gift of a fifth of good whiskey, or offer to do some minor work they needed, in exchange for a temporary right of way. They tried to keep on good terms with folks, because they too, were living in the same valley.

To me, and I don't care what the law says or your "rights" it would be insulting to try to bulldoze a route through my property to save your recreational rifle range. Or your seclusion.

 

[Jim Timber]

The county wouldn't let the platted road be built anyway. And technically it was abandoned before I was born.

The logging access endangers 3 creek culverts if it uses the beach road.

The guy I'm dealing with on cutting through is hardly "one of you" country types. He bought that 40 ten years ago, subdivided it into two 10's and 6 2.5's and flipped it for profit with no intention of keeping anything rural. He's only sold one of the cul de sac lots, and that was to the guy who bought the existing house on one of the 10's.

I'd still go through my swamp if they'd let me, but I'm not destroying more habitat than I have to.

 

[Jim Timber]

Jr lawyer Steve, look at land locked on page 3. Ding ding ding we have a winner... THE COUNTY WILL NOT LET ME PUT A ROAD THROUGH MY SWAMP WIDER THAN A SINGLE LANE.

 

[Steve NW WI]

A single lane is "useful access". GFY - and I don't mean that in the nice off topic way. I'm done here.

 

[slowp]

A logging road is usually a single lane road, with turnouts where needed. Why put in a double lane road?
You take more acres out of production, you increase road building costs, and if you are trying to not have your road noticed, well, that will be better achieved with a single lane road.

Need rock? Rocking a road is expensive--at least here. Why increase costs by building a "double lane" road? Just wondering?

 

[sodbreaker]

TEP panel's current position is to find another access. The township now gets to decide where that access goes.

I've been dealing with these people off and on for over a year. The next step is a formal petition for access.

Neighbor on the east wants over 30K for an unimproved wooded lot (2.5 acres) on the cul de sac. He flat refused 20k - which to me is still obscene for what it is. I may have to pay that in the end, but I'm moving forward with the township. I have no interest in that lot other than driving through it, so that's the path I'm pursuing.

For what it's worth one of the guys I work for pretty frequently ( in Jenkins) had some land that was land locked from the road. He fought for an easment but the land owner wanted an absurd price for the easement. So he took the land owners estimate of what he thought the land was worth to the county land appraiser. The land owner dropped his price quite abit after that.,

Like I said, FWIW
Sod Breaker

 

[Jim Timber]

Spoke with the township roads guy today. Given that the county won't allow my log trucks on the beach road, he said they'd move forward with the easement process if I can't come to agreeable terms with the developer neighbor. So my current plan is to find out if his lots can be further divided to meet minimum lot size with a road between them, and then offer to purchase the easement directly.

If he refuses, the courts generally side with the petitioner, and compensation is based on appraised value. The township guy has seen this in the past, where a neighbor tried to block it and ended up being awarded half what the guy was originally offering to pay.

 

[StihlKiwi]

Slowp brought up a very good point before about temporary access through your neighbours property. Wouldn't it be a good idea to discuss that with him before the while easement thing comes up? All he can do is say no

 

[Jim Timber]

I'm not doing "one cut" - I'm doing a thinning, and will have another harvest within ten years after that, and another, and another, etc. Temp roads aren't a permanent solution.

To those harping about neighbors rights: when you buy property surrounding island parcels YOU should consider that someone else will need to access that land some day. I've offered the guy 30% over current tax valuation and he wants 60% more than I offered (210% of what it's worth).

Another comprehension error you've made is about my seclusion and rifle range - unless they burn the whole block down (900+ acres of woodlands), nothing anyone else does will effect my isolation. My rifle range won't be affected by the road's course either way this goes. Resale value of the lot in question will however be crap when people figure out I shoot high power rifles 150' from the only place on the lot you can build a house. My buying the lot now is doing him a freaking favor, yet he won't sell for a realistic price. Maybe we need to have a "come to Jesus" meeting about the future of his lots when I'll be popping off .50 BMG on my 800yd range. Before you guys get all pissy about that - there's federal money to save rifle ranges, and it's only $750 to get a permit for one to go public use/commercial.

That range is priority #2, right behind building my house.

 

[kodiak]

Jim - Your emotions are getting the way of your manners. You are the one that came here asking for advice. If someone disagrees with your strategies or assumptions, it doesn't make them wrong.

Oh, and the part about "Maybe we need to have a "come to Jesus" meeting about the future of his lots when I'll be popping off .50 BMG on my 800yd range"... You are exactly the type of new-to-the-country individual that was described earlier in not so pleasant terms.

 

[slowp]

You CAN have a temporary road and harvest every 10 years. You build it, log, place a gate or earth berm or some kind of blockage, insert a few drain dips or waterbars if needed, and reopen it in 10 years. You'll still have the rock footprint. It is a common practice to close roads between harvests and saves road maintenance $$. Hopefully, your closure keeps out ATVs and other traffic.

 

[sodbreaker]

My two cents....

The OP offered MORE then the land was worth for an easement, Hes not trying to condemn it and take it for nothing, although he should consider it if his neighbors continue to be A-Holes. I'm not a big fan of "city slickers" moving into the country anymore then the next guy. But the OP, based on what he has wrote here has made every reasonable attempt to keep peace with his neighbors and the local law enforcement.

Personaly if he wanted to drain lake superior to make his road I could not care less. But there are laws about wetlands and if you break them certain people will make you life a living h*ll. If easement to a public road can be made through his neighbors property without excessive disruption to said parcel I personaly don't see the problem.


ETA.

One more thing to add. Your user info says your from Brainerd. Depending on how far from Brainerd and in what direction you, Alot of the soil around there is sand and as such the swamps have a solid bottom under the peat. Alot times 3-6FT However there are a few peat bogs and the depth is indefinite to solid ground. The op should find out which case he has and then go from there.

 

[redprospector]

Wow! This is amazing.
News flash!!! Just because you can, does not make it right. Eminent domain my left hind leg.
I bet that 84 acres was less expensive than the land next too it, eh? The stinking government has made it to where people don't have to think about anything. No access? No problem, we'll take it away from your neighbor. Who probably had plans for it, but no big deal, your plans are probably more important. How would you like it if they all of a sudden decided to take your 800 yard shooting range away from you, so someone behind you with a few acres could have cheaper access?
I guess all that I can really say is; JimTimber, please don't ever consider moving to New Mexico, please. We have enough people like you moving in. Some are actually learning some manners though.

Andy

 

[StihlKiwi]

If you're only doing a bit of logging every 10 years what's wrong with using your single lane driveway as a truck access?