Burls, Collars and Natural Targets

[treeseer]

Pics taken in a Quercus phellos, willow oak that had not been pruned in a long while, if ever. #1 is a burl, the scratch I made where I saw diameter decrease and % of cross-section dead increase. Without much of a collar to go by, I considered this to be a natural target.

Typical pattern that I see on these is for the dead part to be on top, so to remove more dead tissue and leave more living tissue means to make a very slanted cut, exposing more wound to the skyu, rain, spores etc. This is counterintuitive; I'd rather be able to slant the cut the other way so the wound faces downward.

#2 is the cross-sectional view after the cut; note the dead tissue toward the top. I think this is about the best that I could do, but am left with the nagging supicion that I should have gone out farther and slanted more. What would you have done?

 

[a_lopa]

no pics guy.i wouldnt vote without seeing them :angel:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I don't see stubs as a big deal, so I'd vote out farther. Sometimes when you cut into those "extended collars" they die back to the trunk, so if you want to save it, you should have been out a little farther.
When removing dead limbs, I don't like to see that "green" or "living" wood after I make the cut. You can take your hand saw and poke and cut at the loose bark, then ony cut to where the bark is not firmly attached.
I heard Shigo say once that a proper cut leaves no stub and doesn't cut into the collar. He then went on to ask if it was better to leave a stub or cut into the collar, and answered that they both are bad.
The problem is that the proper cut line is very thin and not straight like a saw cuts. The perfect cut is actually thinner than a cell is wide. In other words, you want to cut off the dead cells and leave the living cells. Good luck with that.
From what I know about tree biology, it's far better to leave a stub than cut to deep.

 

[Ekka]

this is where I would cut

 

[R Schra]

I believe its that a collar has both trunck AND branch wood growing up the same time. The reason NOT to cut into the collar is that you will cut through a barrier zone and exposing TRUNCK wood to posible decay. Those extended collars are also to find on beech trees were i let them stay stick out. I think an oak is shown?[edit= stupid me, it says willow oak in original post] i would cut that one short. Why? mmmm 'feeling' of me.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Unless i could determine that it was only branch growth forced from some kind of girdling at taper; i'd assume it was parent/collar. If it proved too unsightly, and no natural branch cover, could throw spanish moss over, or hang plant from higher up that would trail and obscure view; until parent diameter more engulfed to our picturesque sense of allowable order.

 

[Stumper]

Kc, Send me some Spanish Moss to throw over limbs in Colorado.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It is a far,
far better thing
to stub a little
then to
flush at all.

You have a lot of cyclical clientel Guy. You seem to be able to turn customers into clients easily, so I'm sure you'll be up in that tree in a few years to see how it grows.

Though I may have taken it back to the bump where the canker ends. Depends on time of day and phase ofthe moon.

At that hight, no one would notice the "stub" anyhow.

 

[treeseer]

You have a lot of cyclical clientel Guy. You seem to be able to turn customers into clients easily, so I'm sure you'll be up in that tree in a few years to see how it grows. At that hight, no one would notice the "stub" anyhow

JPS, the burl is plainly visible from the ground, even to the 85-yr old client. she has an incredibly formal landscape, but had no problem with the "bump". re cyclical, yeah loyalty and repeat business is great, but I told her the tree would not likely need mtc for 5 yrs.

Though I may have taken it back to the bump where the canker ends. Depends on time of day and phase of the moon.

Canker? What canker?

not sure what the moon has to do with it, but mood and 'feelings' that Schra is talking about affect my choices in weak moments too. Often for the worse

Schra why would you leave burls on beeches and not on oaks?

Ekka what reason do you have for going back to the trunk?

Justin I think spanish moss would crumble quickly in CO. If a burl is really ugly I might hang a birdhouse on it.
So the votes are 2-2-2 so far--how about the lurkers chiming in a little?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I chose the last option in the poll.

 

[Ax-man]

I voted farther out, Was that limb totally dead or partially alive ????

Larry

 

[treeseer]

I voted farther out, Was that limb totally dead or partially alive ????Larry

Totally dead at the end, mostly dead beyond the cut. I should've saved the branch and dissected it to see just how far out; o well.

"The problem is that the proper cut line is very thin and not straight like a saw cuts. The perfect cut is actually thinner than a cell is wide. In other words, you want to cut off the dead cells and leave the living cells."

Mike, what about leaving a long wound facing the elements (up)? I don't like doing that.

thanks mb, now I'll hafta be nice to you for a change. :angel:

 

[MasterBlaster]

No shat!

 

[Ekka]

Ekka what reason do you have for going back to the trunk?

Have a close look at the picture, I'm suggesting you cut back to the primary collar. This is not a flush cut. It is at this point the tree has it's natural defences and best chance to CODIT.

Cutting further out (look at second picture) shows the upper part of the branch is dead and will take a long time to CODIT if at all, meanwhile the tree is exposed to pathogens. By cutting back closer you may get past this dead wood and have good cambium the entire circumference which will lead to good closure by callus wood.

 

[timberbeast]

Hey Guys,

According to the Tree Climbers' Guide as coordinated by the ISA, "pruning cuts should be made to the branch collar. Leaving a stub inhibits proper closure of the wound."

My own personal experience would compliment the above statement. I have studied CODIT for years on tree work I have performed and would support Ekka in his decision to cut closer to the trunk, and outside the branch bark ridge.

The branch bark ridge has natural phenols (anti-microbial substances) to ward off pathogens and resins to ward off insects. Pruning at the BBR is part of Natural Target Pruning.

Sometimes people may confuse the callous wood with the branch collar. Just because the callous wood may have spread 2 feet out on the limb doesn't mean that the branch collar has moved.

Again, cut at the branch collar.

 

[Lumberjack]

I agree with ekka, the callous or wound would will have to form over the dead wood, or perhaps under it to completely comparmentalize the wound/decay.


But (there is always a but), the base is swollen, which could be due to the dead limb, and if so, it needs to be cut past it like kenny says.

So either I agree with ekka or kenny, depending. I chose numeber 2, I think ya left a bit of a stub, but like Butch said, its ok, move on.

Interesting topics as of late Guy!

 

[timberbeast]

Ummmmmmmmmm what if the swelling is not from some kind of growth from girdling etc.; but actually part of CODIT itself/ extension of collar?

Treespyder,
The branch collar is part of the trunk growth and cellular tissue, it will not move. What you're looking at beyond the branch collar is growth of either callous wood or normal branch formation. The clear identification of the large swelling closer to the trunk as indicated by Ekka's pics and the illustration I submitted is evidence of where the collar actually is.

Furthermore, there is no dead wood on the upper side of the collar at this point, which will inhibit callous wood closure of the wound.

 

[treeseer]

the swelling is not from some kind of growth from girdling etc.; but actually part of CODIT itself/ extension of collar?

Kenny you're right, it is, so I would never go back to where the 'original" collar was. However, as much as I hate to remove all that stored tree food, I fear that I left too much; I'm agreeing with JPS and tbeast that the best place to cut is where all the dead tissue--"canker"-- will be removed, so closure is facilitated. I do not agree with tbeast that the collar is set in one place forever, but that is an esoteric point that would take detailed anatomy pics to sort out.

There is a tapering halfway out that stub, which looks like the best target, so I'm voting #2 with Carl. I'll be back on that job in a few days; will take new pic of final cut, and pics of epicormic shoots/natural targets for reduction cuts on that reduced pine. Thankfully, the client is fine with a few minutes of paid time taken to advance the cause of my arboricultural understanding, and doing the best possible thing for her trees.

 

[Ax-man]

Can I ask a few questions

Was their any visible signs as to why the limb was dying in the first place???

Why did you cut so far out in the first place, what may be quote " live tissue " at the present was showing signs that it was in a state of limbo between live and dead and showing signs that it was definately on it's way out. I took your second pic and marked what I'm trying to say.

Is there any real harm in just cutting farther back and accelerating the compartmentalization process that is already occuring?? Was the live tissue left actually viable enough to carry out the tree's life functions??

The live tissue that was left didn't leap out and say to my eyes that it was in " good health " The color of the good wood at the bottom of the pic just looked let just say "off " from what normal healthy wood would look like.

Larry

 

[treeseer]

Was their any visible signs as to why the limb was dying in the first place???

Shade

"what may be quote " live tissue " at the present was showing signs that it was in a state of limbo between live and dead and showing signs that it was definately on it's way out. I took your second pic and marked what I'm trying to say.

Good point and good observation. Black specs indicate that decay may well be advancing downward, a good argument for removing all dead tissue.

"Is there any real harm in just cutting farther back and accelerating the compartmentalization process that is already occuring??

No. Usually, cutting back makes a bigger wound and thus delays closure, but in this case getting the dead out is Job #1.

"Was the live tissue left actually viable enough to carry out the tree's life functions??

Yes I think that woundwood/callus is important for storage and metabolism, but not when it gets decayed.

"The color of the good wood at the bottom of the pic just looked let just say "off " from what normal healthy wood would look like.

yes, that off color may be due to fungal enzymes. Great points, I'm clearer now on the need to shorten.