cabling a dangerous tree

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darkstar

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I have been asked to cable a elm tree that has split from its 2 seperate trunks about 4 feet up ,all the way to the ground . Each trunk goes up about 45 feet and leans heavily in both directions.The split is obiously right in the middle The tree is about 2.5 feet dbs .The cabling system would likely keep the tree standing for several years but the tree is located in a small playground . The owners of the tree just want to preserve the tree for shade reasons but if the tree fell i could be liable . I have no doubt at all that tree is a hazerd and that cabling will only delay the inevatable . What would you do ? Sorry no pics but the description is accurate.
 
Cabling is intended to help reinforce a weak fork. It is not meant to reconstruct a failed fork. If the fork has already failed -especially in a playground- then it should be removed. Some may argue whether or not failure has occurred, but IMO a 4' crack from the fork all the way to the ground pretty much has to be defined as a failure.

But since the tree obviously cannot remain like it is, this might be a good opportunity to do one of Guy's crown reductions (topping to ISA specs). Perhaps a combination of a couple cables and substantial weight reduction will allow the tree to stay a few more years. Just be extremely clear that this course of action will require an annual inspection and re-evaluation of risk as long as the tree remains standing. I might suggest this as an alternative to removal (depending on the tree, of course).
 
That's exactly what i reccomended but the customer does not wont to lose any shade value . The crack in the tree goes all the way through the center.and has opened about one inch in the last 5 months .Im reccomending removal.
 
Brian,

If you don't get along with Guy, take it off the forum. Quit slagging.

Define topping and crown reduction, you'll see that they are different.

There is a difference between topping and crown reduction as you well know. Get out your copy of the A300 Best Management Plan-Pruning and read the book.

this might be a good opportunity to do one of Guy's crown reductions (topping to ISA specs).
 
I actually know the difference between topping and crown reduction . It doesent matter in this case however as the customer wants no limbs removed whatsoever. Seems a no brainer to me. A fully split tree ,the split being 2.5 inches ,wide runnning about 4 to 5 feet in lenght all the way from the first crotch to below ground level . Is there any other option ? I think no, as liability is to much to risk .
 
Tom-
I was specifically thinking of you when I wrote that. :) Thanks for your reply, right on que. I'm also looking forward to Guy's reaction.
wave.gif
 
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located in a small playground .

located in a small playground .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT TO BE SARCASTIC BUT. IF A TREE IS EVEN BORDER LINE A HAZARD AND IT'S IN A PLAY GROUND YOU MUST AIR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION!!

WHAT IS YOUR COMPANY / LIFE STILE WORTH??
BECAUSE ONCE YOU TOUCH IT YOU OWN IT!! NOT TO MENTION IF YOU CABLE IT AND IT FALLS AND HURTS SOME ONE YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN YOUR NEW CARDBOARD BOX WITH THAT!
 
Tom, which is it? The last thread you lamented the possibility of putting/being placed on ignore because discussion conveys ideas, now on this thread, you say not to discuss.

I respect guy's and your opinions about treecare. Are the both of you always right? No. always wrong? again, no. Discussion is what these boards are all about.
I've spoken at length with Guy in PMs about this exact thing. We both agree that we enjoy watching the other being called to the carpet, and kinda like it ourselves.
Where's the harm in polite discussion?
-Ralph
 
Ok now for the truth , I already cabled that darn tree . Im to darn nice and sympathic to the customer ,also the tree has been standing on its own,, split for at least 4 years as evidenced by the new growth at the split .I explained that the cables were in no way a solution but would only [possibly ] prolong failure. I put double cables in the tree at 2/3rds height . I mentioned repeatedly that these cables would not stop a total failure. I reccomended removal from the beganning . The customer is really attached to this tree and i actually did the work for the cost of material, in other words pro bono. The huge eye bolts that i sunk have been under constant load for 7 months even though i left the cables about 3 inches slack . The tree expands with the wind and is slowly opening my 3200 pound test eye bolts . These are the same bolts that i have used my winch on to pull huge loads , ive seen them bend but never open up . The customer called and explained that one of the cables had failed i immediatly figured i had not properly tightened the nuts on the cable holders . NO the bolts i sunk have opened enough to allow one of the cables to slip out .Now , the customer only wanted me to fix it, which i did , temporarily and as best as it can be fixed . I then again explained the risk of the tree and how the cables would not stop total failure .The only half way good thing is that the tree is located off to the side of the playground not directly above it ,and i likely have some time to correct this situation that i should not have gotten involved with to began . Embarresed to say, but at this point lucky enough to still have time for correction . Even today as i explained that the tree was a hazerd the customer did not seem to acknowledge . Many mistakes made here . Dark
 
Then tell him to call you when the tree hits the ground and you will clean it up. Also tell him it will cost extra if there are juvenile human bodies underneath it.
:eek:
 
Yeah...I took the bait. There is a HUGE difference between topping and what Guy is promoting as crown reduction. Calling Brian on his mis-use of terms is the reason I responded. ANSI standards are well written and do allow crown reduction. The ISA doesn't set the standards, the ANSI A300 Committee with the input of the whole industry makes the standards. Everyone has the opportunity to give input for the next revision.

Dark,

Did you take pictures of the tree? Before and after?

I would be VERY reluctant to do the work that you took on with the tree in a play area. Are there targets? :) Now, the tree is damaging the cabling system that you put in. Without knowing more it seems like you're exposing yourself to a huge potential liability.

I've done some jobs where the tree was split. Large through bolts were installed. Steel cable low in the crown and dynamic cable in the crown. The jobs always start with crown reduction in these cases though. When I go back to Mpls. next summer I'm going to check out the two biggest salvage jobs that I did.

I do agree with Brian on his plan you see :)
 
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Since you already did some work, it's time to CYA!! Send him a registered letter (witnessed by a lawyer?) with your concerns, make it very obvious you are not responsible for the failure WHEN it happens. If you really want to continue pro bono go ahead, make the offer in your letter. Otherwise suggest they find another scapegoat. Non profit day care or something?? No money to work with?


If this thing takes out kids.....................
 
Tom i have exposed myself to liabilty with out a doubt. MY cabling system is taking a beating and i have to fix it . Ive always tried to save trees when possible , this time i erred . Even today when i mentioned weight reduction the customer said no . I am sending a certified letter with my reccomendations of removal . Hopefully that will help resolve any future mishaps.I do think i could keep this tree alive for a decade or more but its the liabilty im in question of after seeing my system fail under load . If it comes to it , ill cable it with double half inch stanless cables and sink the bolts all the way through ,but id rather remove the tree for now and the letter will be sent . Hope you guys dont do have this same mistake . Thanx Dark
 
My goodness my ears should have been burning today but they weren't. I guess they're working asbestos they can! :D

Client wants shade value retained; that can be done while reducing end weight and lessening strain on eye bolts. bucket truck almost mandatory; it's devilishly difficult to get out on those tips. Attached are pics of a big elm in Raleigh a friend of mine cabled several years ago. It size looks similar to Dark's description, and it's split to the ground. (sorry about size folks--any resizers out there?).


Targets include transmission lines, cars, houses, people, you name it. The residents asked me to assess risk; I climbed tree to inspect cables, probed crack for decay, checked root collar, etc. I reported that the cables seem to be doing the job, that the tree is not a high risk to fail, and that it should be checked annually. I told them if it were my tree with those splits and even with the cables I'd lighten the tips maybe 5%. I reported that if the defects increased in severity, then one option was thinning/reduction, another total removal, another more cables.

Signed with the usual disclaimers, I sleep well and have no fear of residing in a cardboard box. It's called managing risk by proper assessment and mitigation. Not that difficult, no worries.:blob6:

dark get a camera and use it ok?
 
darkstar said:
Ok now for the truth , I already cabled that darn tree . Im to darn nice and sympathic to the customer ,also the tree has been standing on its own,, split for at least 4 years as evidenced by the new growth at the split .I explained that the cables were in no way a solution but would only [possibly ] prolong failure. I put double cables in the tree at 2/3rds height . I mentioned repeatedly that these cables would not stop a total failure. I reccomended removal from the beganning . The customer is really attached to this tree and i actually did the work for the cost of material, in other words pro bono. The huge eye bolts that i sunk have been under constant load for 7 months even though i left the cables about 3 inches slack . The tree expands with the wind and is slowly opening my 3200 pound test eye bolts . These are the same bolts that i have used my winch on to pull huge loads , ive seen them bend but never open up . The customer called and explained that one of the cables had failed i immediatly figured i had not properly tightened the nuts on the cable holders . NO the bolts i sunk have opened enough to allow one of the cables to slip out .Now , the customer only wanted me to fix it, which i did , temporarily and as best as it can be fixed . I then again explained the risk of the tree and how the cables would not stop total failure .The only half way good thing is that the tree is located off to the side of the playground not directly above it ,and i likely have some time to correct this situation that i should not have gotten involved with to began . Embarresed to say, but at this point lucky enough to still have time for correction . Even today as i explained that the tree was a hazerd the customer did not seem to acknowledge . Many mistakes made here . Dark



OK NOW IT'S TIME FOR DAMAGE CONTROL
FORGET THE BOLTS . TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS JUST BELOW YOUR BOLTS GO TO A METAL FAB SHOP HAVE TWO 2 PIECE COLLARS MADE OUT OF 1/2 PLATE 18" TALL MADE BOLT THEM AROUND THE TWO MAINS TAKE A MEASUREMENT BETWEEN THE TWO GET A 6"X1/2" PIECE OF PIPE AND HAVE A CERTIFIED WELDER COME WELD IT IN BETWINE THE COLLARS (WELD COLLARS ALSO) MITE NOT BE PRETTY BUT WILL OUT LAST THE TREE
 
darkstar said:
Ok now for the truth , I already cabled that darn tree . Im to darn nice and sympathic to the customer ,also the tree has been standing on its own,, split for at least 4 years as evidenced by the new growth at the split .I explained that the cables were in no way a solution but would only [possibly ] prolong failure. I put double cables in the tree at 2/3rds height . I mentioned repeatedly that these cables would not stop a total failure. I reccomended removal from the beganning . The customer is really attached to this tree and i actually did the work for the cost of material, in other words pro bono. The huge eye bolts that i sunk have been under constant load for 7 months even though i left the cables about 3 inches slack . The tree expands with the wind and is slowly opening my 3200 pound test eye bolts . These are the same bolts that i have used my winch on to pull huge loads , ive seen them bend but never open up . The customer called and explained that one of the cables had failed i immediatly figured i had not properly tightened the nuts on the cable holders . NO the bolts i sunk have opened enough to allow one of the cables to slip out .Now , the customer only wanted me to fix it, which i did , temporarily and as best as it can be fixed . I then again explained the risk of the tree and how the cables would not stop total failure .The only half way good thing is that the tree is located off to the side of the playground not directly above it ,and i likely have some time to correct this situation that i should not have gotten involved with to began . Embarresed to say, but at this point lucky enough to still have time for correction . Even today as i explained that the tree was a hazerd the customer did not seem to acknowledge . Many mistakes made here . Dark

Darkstar, you need to correctly fix the failed cable, then immediately send the homeowners a certified letter with a return receipt. In the letter you need to inform the homeowners that because of further deterioration at the base of the tree, the tree has become a hazard. Also, because of the tree's proximity to the playground and children, it must be removed immediately.
If you do not receive a response after seven days, contact the homeowners again. If they still have not resolved the situation, you may need to contact the building department for your municipality and inform the inspector of the hazard. In New Jersey, a municipal building inspector will notify the homeowner that a summons will be issue if the hazard tree is not removed in a given period of time. You may have the same ability in your state.
The fact that you performed the cabling work Pro Bono does not relieve you from liability.
Good luck,

Fred
 
fpyontek said:
The fact that you performed the cabling work Pro Bono does not relieve you from liability.
Fred, I agree with this. But without seeing the tree, none of us can say what should be done with it. I think siccing the law on the tree owner is a little extreme, unless it threatens public property.

Dark, please stop working for free unless it's a pure charity case and you get a tax deduction. You MUST use a disclaimer on every job you do. Educate the client on the benefits of weight reduction. If you had a camera you could show him pics of the failing hardware, and save 1000 words.

TOPPING NO, REDUCTION YES
Consider crown reduction when a big tree is declining, or the root system of a large-maturing tree is confined to a small soil space. Sometimes as little as a 3 to 6 foot reduction in height can add a great amount of stability to a large tree.. Before cutting any branches to reduce the size of the canopy, visualize the new canopy outline. Reduce the size of a tree with reduction cuts, shortening those branches which extend beyond the new, smaller canopy.

Proper canopy reduction makes the tree smaller but leaves no visible branch stubs. Allow sprouts to grow from the reduction cuts, then in the dormant season a few years later, remove the less desirable sprouts. Crown reduction may be as much an art as a science, but with the help of new resources it can be learned by any motivated arborist.

Dr. Ed Gilman’s recently revised Illustrated Guide to Pruning features an in-depth look at techniques to achieve crown reduction and every other goal for pruning a tree. The illustrations help the words come to life, as the reader is shown the principles described. The book is available through ISA or the publisher www.thomsonlearning.com. It belongs with everyone who prunes trees and their supervisors.

http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/pruning/

O and ASD, please stop shouting ok?
 
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