calling all fallers

[1I'dJak]

i'm sure fallers are in more demand than climbers right now gavin....however, its seems many of the climbers eventually want to become fallers...fallers generally make more money though i hear of some guys paying their climbers for standing stem $550/day....but you always hear of that kinda stuff....yet i think that stemming wood has certain advantages so it'll probably be around for awhile...i don't know about the windfirming....it could be one of those things that forestry drops...which would be too bad...I've been climbing out in the woods for less than a year, but would way rather windfirm than stem... however, as of right now you can become a climber in the industry without investing $10,000 in a course, as there is no certification process....which will probably change soon....another bonus of climbing is that its skill set transfers over into the residential world...if you have climbing gear, someone always needs your services...more so than a faller...as for the work itself...six in one....both are dangerous...however, we don't have to deal with pussed out snags and can generally see what's going on above our heads...

 

[Buzz 880]

1I'Djack

Any idea what the pay is for fallers out there

 

[SRT-Tech]

haven't looked into loans, but if there is i think it would be through the government, like for university degrees. you also have to pay for your living expenses, and it says provide your own transportation to and from the sites when you're doing field training. i'm guessing that would be a problem in a car, and you'd need a truck.

^ you are correct. Anyone taking the fallers cert course has to not only pay the tuition, they need to:

- relocate (moving expenses)
- find housing (aint cheap out there)
- own a truck (cars dont make it up to the cutblocks where the course takes place)
- food
- WCB exam fees in richmond BC (ferry ride + $600+ for the exam)

and for some strange reason, the Student Loan program wont approve a loan for that course.

 

[1I'dJak]

the fallers rates that i've heard range from $450-$650....there could be more, could be less..depending whether you are working for a company or are self employed therefore paying your own compo.....having worked the system a bit, i'd figure the best way to get help paying for the fallers course would be through UI....they have programs where they will assist you in training for a trade....often they will allow you to collect ui while training and pay for some of the training as well...you've just had to have been on ui in the last three years...i've done this myself before...it usually involves some hoop jumping, meeting attendance, and forms to fill out...local offshoot government agencies (such as steps to employment or NIEFS) who are connected with ui will help you out.... the bc fallers course is something they might help you out with...

 

[Buzz 880]

the fallers rates that i've heard range from $450-$650....there could be more, could be less..depending whether you are working for a company or are self employed therefore paying your own compo.....having worked the system a bit, i'd figure the best way to get help paying for the fallers course would be through UI....they have programs where they will assist you in training for a trade....often they will allow you to collect ui while training and pay for some of the training as well...you've just had to have been on ui in the last three years...i've done this myself before...it usually involves some hoop jumping, meeting attendance, and forms to fill out...local offshoot government agencies (such as steps to employment or NIEFS) who are connected with ui will help you out.... the bc fallers course is something they might help you out with...

Do you know if there is much work for a faller out this time of year or when is the busy time for logging out there.

 

[1I'dJak]

once the snow's gone it seems the fallers i know are working...a lot of work on the mid coast right now it seems...the price of the course will probably make the number of faller's dwindle, but as long as we use wood, there'll always be the need for fallers on the coast...even on second growth settings, as much of the ground is too steep and too wet for a machines... another skill would be to learn is jigging...which is involved in standing stem harvesting....if a guy fell, climbed, and jigged, he'd be in demand and make some bucks....

 

[Buzz 880]

I'dJak

once the snow's gone it seems the fallers i know are working...a lot of work on the mid coast right now it seems...the price of the course will probably make the number of faller's dwindle, but as long as we use wood, there'll always be the need for fallers on the coast...even on second growth settings, as much of the ground is too steep and too wet for a machines... another skill would be to learn is jigging...which is involved in standing stem harvesting....if a guy fell, climbed, and jigged, he'd be in demand and make some bucks....

I have a video from one of the heli loggers out there it shows some guys jigging out there.But I have climbed lots of trees here in Ontario even some pretty big white pine but I was in BC last spring checked out some of the timber out there those tree's are pretty f..cking big don't think that jigging would be for me.Do you now of any falling contractors on vancouver island.Really thinking about a change unless the price of timber get's better here.

 

[gavin]

jigging isn't much different from falling, just minus the undercut and the tree doesn't fall over. two horizontal cuts with a thin strip of holding wood. obviously there is skill and planning involved, but as far as i know i'm pretty sure you don't have to spend a good chunk of money on a training course. probably start off as a groundman and get trained up. the thing i like about standing stem is it involves all three of what 1 i'd jack mentioned. climbing, jigging and handfalling. and the really big stuff gets jacked over. i wish i got some experience as a groundman and not just the engineering part of it. the SSH was getting ramped up and the company i worked for is laying out lots of SSH wood so i'm sure it will be around for a while. it was a really cool experience to see an S-64 clamp on to a stem, snap it off and fly it to the landing.

 

[Buzz 880]

Gavin

jigging isn't much different from falling, just minus the undercut and the tree doesn't fall over. two horizontal cuts with a thin strip of holding wood. obviously there is skill and planning involved, but as far as i know i'm pretty sure you don't have to spend a good chunk of money on a training course. probably start off as a groundman and get trained up. the thing i like about standing stem is it involves all three of what 1 i'd jack mentioned. climbing, jigging and handfalling. and the really big stuff gets jacked over. i wish i got some experience as a groundman and not just the engineering part of it. the SSH was getting ramped up and the company i worked for is laying out lots of SSH wood so i'm sure it will be around for a while. it was a really cool experience to see an S-64 clamp on to a stem, snap it off and fly it to the landing.

What part of the island did work on.

 

[1I'dJak]

well that's good news...though i do like windfirming better....less climbing and more grappling from tree to tree...to answer your question buzz, though i don't know alot of fallinfg outfits, i know of fedgie & gunnerson, SSH (who i work for), colson, glm, afo, aggressive falling....mmm i know there's more but i can't think of them...gavin probably knows more...what company do you work for gavin? where have you been laying out blocks? I know we (SSH) are stemming in lockburough inlet right now...though our crew is windfirming up around sayward...

 

[clearance]

I have a video from one of the heli loggers out there it shows some guys jigging out there.But I have climbed lots of trees here in Ontario even some pretty big white pine but I was in BC last spring checked out some of the timber out there those tree's are pretty f..cking big don't think that jigging would be for me.Do you now of any falling contractors on vancouver island.Really thinking about a change unless the price of timber get's better here.

I thought I had climbed some big trees, then I went to the Charlottes! There is some bigass trees on the Q.C.I. Hard to climb at first but you get used to it, you can do it. Gots to say, jigging is a lot different from falling, there is falling, then there is falling. Some of that big, decadent old growth is pretty intimidating stuff, it made me wonder just climbing it. About being out in the bush though, beats the snot outta working around citzens. You can pretty much do what you want, no one to complain about what you are doing, its peacefull, its good.

 

[1I'dJak]

that's where the old grapple or claw as its called comes in handy....specially with some of those marmed out cedars that r frickin' almost square! Just climb a nice tree beside it...tie in, chuck the claw into the big ass tree, tighten up the claw line with the ascender and swing over...hope you don't get a clawback (when the limb its hooked on breaks) or you don't get stuck out in no man's land.... still it beats the ???? outta climbing the skak.... nice in the second growth too... christ you can almost pull the two trees together!

 

[gavin]

...what company do you work for gavin? where have you been laying out blocks?

i used to work for IFMI. pretty much all of the stemming i laid out was in the cowichan woodlands. laid out a bunch in dent creek, bear creek, lots on the san juan river...reeeaaal nice wood on the san juan. did a bit in the nanaimo lakes area. some on the east side of lake cowichan. basically all my work was on the south island. right now i'm going to school and hating every minute of it....i'm going to fail a final exam that starts in 5 and a half hours. just finished my last minute studying and realized how screwed i am. i don't think i'm going to go back to school next year....gonna do forest fire fighting again this summer, then work and save up for the falling course which i hope to take early in 2008 (because i won't be able to make course before the snow flies because of other stuff i gotta do). i basically figure the falling course will end up costing me around $25,000. i'm gonna have to sell my car and my motorbike that i just bought a few months ago (that makes me mad) and add in money to buy a reliable truck, pay for living expenses, the course itself ($10,000). i have a husky 394 right now with a few bars, so i'll need at least one more saw...the saw i have now is pretty old so i might need 2 new saws. i have most of the gear i need: caulks, bucking pants, radio, all that stuff, but i'll have buy a few other randoms and logging gear sure ain't cheap. one thing i noticed about the course is it says saws will be provided to use for the course, but i figure it would make more sense if they dropped the price a bit and said get your own saw...then at least you have a good saw for when you start out...oh well. it also says to talk to logging outfits before taking the course and get a job lined up, so i'm gonna talk to the people i know that are fallers, riggers, etc. i figure at one point i'd like to take the log scaling course too, because even though scaling 10-12hours/day in a sort would be boring as hell i know a scaler that does QC on the hill and said its good...i figure it would give me better employability. but thats another 4000 or more to do that course, so thats something to do a few years down the road. k i just realized i'm rambling on pretty bad...if anybody has read this far...

got another question...most guys contract themselves out as individual fallers, does anybody know what kind of WCB rates they gotta pay? because i was told that even though it sounds like you're making money hand over fist, there's a lot of expenses to cover when you contract yourself out...and that you also pay your own benefits...

and 1 i'd jack, i also have thought about getting into climbing. i know a guy that climbs but haven't talked to him in a while. you figure it would be possible to get trained up as a climber on off days from falling? i'm not afraid of heights, but i heard climbing beats the crap out of your knees worse than damn near any other job.

oh yeah and as for other logging outfits...whoever was asking...i know of on the island...umm hayes, munns, island pacific logging...those are all pretty big ones. its late and i can't think of any other ones off the top of my head right now.

 

[1I'dJak]

i, like the fallers, contract myself out as well...you pay into your own personal compo...the rates are adjusted to industry....i'm doing it as tree service, but i think manual falling and bucking rates are on par...maybe even lower...basically how much coverage you want determines how much you pay... right now i'm covered for the minimum...which is $1500.00 per month... sh1t ????? all! is should boost it up...this ends up costing me close to $500 per three months... but i should boost it up and get some life insurance too... then as a business you have to pay into your cpp as well and no more winter UI ski team! However, many fallers and climbers go thru a setup called BC Fallers run by a woman in Powell River...she does all the ???? for you...invoicing the companies, taking off taxes, paying into your compo etc...she even gives out advances...she might be one to talk to when getting your certificate...i think companies looking for fallers give her a call for a list of guys... as for the forest climbing, i've just started doing it last year and from my experience its kinda like how falling used to be...can you climb...here's the manual....this is how you stem....lets see you do it...ok you're hired... i started climbing for a tree service company then a friend set me up with SSH...other guys worked as groundman for the stemming outfits and gradually got trained to climb on the job...there once was a course offered to certify forestry climbers, but no longer....if you're going to school and need some cash, give local tree services a call...they often are looking for guys who can run saw and work hard....and the guy i worked for didn't want to climb anymore so he sent me up one asap...the old school way! as for the knees it varies....climbing is rough on them, especially stemming cuz you're climbing quite a bit...and often walking around with your spurs on...however, windfirming, which i prefer, you do less climbing cuz your working your claw and swinging from tree to tree... sometimes you only have to climb (from the bottom) a few trees in a day...a guy i windfirm with, used to fall and says its easier than packing a big ass saw around heli blocks...however his motto is: Homie don't stem!

 

[clearance]

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...uation.pdf+swanson+humbolt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2 Gavin check this out, this is it. Jak, the WCB thing is the biggest scam ever, I pay $256 a month for $2500 coverage, actually 90% of 75% of $2500. So like about $1800. 10.24%. And they get to fine me, or my estate if I do something "wrong", awesome. I kind of miss windfirming , sure had to remember stuff when I started climbing around houses again, like you can't just let 'er rip, or pull out the spitting rodent whenever, or yell and curse, or just leave the keys in the truck and so on.

 

[gavin]

thanks for the link clearance, and thanks for the info 1i'djak. i've seen a copy of the test evaluation before but as i remember it wasn't as comprehensive, so this is definately good to see. jak, did i understand you right that you can't collect UI when you're out of work for a while and contract yourself out? aaahhh that sucks. but on the positive side you get to take tax deductions don't you? like write off your truck and a certain number of km's, and write off your gear and stuff?

thanks again for all the info. 1 exam down, 3 to go...i've only got a few shreds of sanity left from all this studying. i definately wasn't born to work inside.

 

[gavin]

just found it here: http://www.worksafebc.com/regulation_and_policy/published_policy/assets/pdf/rate_list_2007.pdf

base rate for fallers is $9.46 per $100 of income. highway robbery.

 

[clearance]

just found it here: http://www.worksafebc.com/regulation_and_policy/published_policy/assets/pdf/rate_list_2007.pdf

base rate for fallers is $9.46 per $100 of income. highway robbery.

I am paying $10.24 per $100, to climb, thieving bastards, just don't get hurt, then you'll find out how much they care.

 

[gavin]

yeah no doubt. i'd rather squirrel that money away on my own in case i got hurt. i checked out old rates, and even after the new training standard, which includes a $10,000 course, the rates have gone up. basically what that says to me is that they don't think the new training standard will actually affect injuries.