WannabeFireFaller
ArboristSite Lurker
Thanks for your insight! Definitely still want to get into a few more classes to see what I can learn and it looks like Game of Logging will be my go to while I'm on the east coast.
Where do fallers get their experience from?
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WannabeFireFaller
ArboristSite Lurker
For sure, thanks! Swamping for a contract faller may be what I end up doing. Did a bit of cutting on my hand crew but heard it'd probably be better to pursue a falling specific career path rather than hoping to learn with the forest service.
If you think that Nut is fluid, find one of hotsaws101's videos where he showcases the talents of Mean Jean. It becomes some sort of dance/art when a guy has run a saw every day for 40 or 50 years. To me anyhow.
Bore cutting has it's place, but I am vehemently against cutting up every tree in the exact same manner like GOL wants you to. Doing that creates a robot, which will get you hurt. I've seen it. A guy does his routine, ending with beating a wedge into a static kerf before cutting the back, & then all kinds of wild stuff happens due to so much weight shift so quickly. Pounding wedges into a back cut that isn't fully cut up prepositions you to be a mindless wedge pounder, which WILL get you killed. Youll be swinging away as usual, but you didn't notice that dead locust that's keeping the stem from tipping, you just figure that you need to keep beating. The locust breaks out, the tree starts to commit, & at just about that time you get your brains splattered. That very scenario took the life of an up & coming faller that I knew.... I'd seen him making that same mistake a hand full of times and it worried me. Cut trees with creativity, make it fun. If you have a heavy head leaner, GOL it up, otherwise let the tree tell you what to do. As time goes on, you'll get a feel for things. After a while longer you'll be able to tell the difference that just a 5 minute walk to a different side of the ridge can make in how the timber acts. Just my opinion.
Husky77
ArboristSite Operative
Work with the best, dont expect top money and yreat it as a learning curve. Ask questions but also use common sense, look after your tools and they will soon know your serious, above all work safely
If you worked on a fire crew for a couple of seasons, you ought to know about how to get started on a fire crew. The Forest Service has a certification program. You go to training, and then go out with one of the trainers and cut what they direct you to cut. It is time consuming and no way will you get to be a C faller (any diameter) the first time, unless you are already extremely experienced.
A FS certified faller is by no means a production faller. Safety is the first priority and you are cutting to get trees safely on the ground, not for maximum timber utilization. Production cutting is not to be confused with "dropping" a tree. Trees are felled in a pattern (directionally felled) in a way to make yarding or skidding logs efficient without damaging the leave trees. Production fallers have to be safe, efficient, know the specifications for logs, know how to identify rot, know how to buck a log FOR the market, and how to buck out defect--unless it is a tree length unit. Then logs are bucked on the landings. The production fallers I've been around take pride in their abilities. Most come from logging families or have friends in the business. It used to be that "kids" started out building firelines around clearcut units for burning later, but that doesn't happen anymore. The best fallers I have known, started out as kids and packed gear for their dads during their summer vacation time. That's probably against the law now.
If you just want to fall trees, and not timber, a fire crew is a good way to get going. Be patient. Don't know how it is now, but you'd start out as a "swamper" for a "sawyer" on a fire crew and maybe move up into beginning bucker. Bucking has certification requirements also. You also need to get on the ball, as training and certification starts early in the year. I think you also have missed the deadline for getting hired also. Better go talk to somebody who still works for an agency if you are by any means serious.
I was a B class bucker after becoming tired of chopping trees that were down across roads with a pulaski, and going back to the office in a foul mood where the saw certifier was very kind and allowed me to wield a saw. He said I looked comfortable running a saw and gave me a card for up to 24 inches. The joke is that after 24", one loses all knowledge of how to buck a tree up. I then went to training every year to keep the certification. I had previously worked on a thinning crew before any certification program existed.
A very good professional faller never let me forget that I was "certified" and he was not. He went in to inquire about certification and was told not enough time was available to make him a Class C faller. He wanted to cut hazard trees along his daughter's school bus route voluntarily, and was told he'd have to go through certification , and that was not going to happen. When visiting a unit he was cutting on, I'd hear, COME AND TELL ME HOW TO CUT THIS TREE. AFTERALL, YOU ARE THE CERTIFIED CUTTER. My reply was always that I'd have to lie down and look up at it as I was merely a B Bucker.
Note: This is how it worked in Region 6.
A FS certified faller is by no means a production faller. Safety is the first priority and you are cutting to get trees safely on the ground, not for maximum timber utilization. Production cutting is not to be confused with "dropping" a tree. Trees are felled in a pattern (directionally felled) in a way to make yarding or skidding logs efficient without damaging the leave trees. Production fallers have to be safe, efficient, know the specifications for logs, know how to identify rot, know how to buck a log FOR the market, and how to buck out defect--unless it is a tree length unit. Then logs are bucked on the landings. The production fallers I've been around take pride in their abilities. Most come from logging families or have friends in the business. It used to be that "kids" started out building firelines around clearcut units for burning later, but that doesn't happen anymore. The best fallers I have known, started out as kids and packed gear for their dads during their summer vacation time. That's probably against the law now.
If you just want to fall trees, and not timber, a fire crew is a good way to get going. Be patient. Don't know how it is now, but you'd start out as a "swamper" for a "sawyer" on a fire crew and maybe move up into beginning bucker. Bucking has certification requirements also. You also need to get on the ball, as training and certification starts early in the year. I think you also have missed the deadline for getting hired also. Better go talk to somebody who still works for an agency if you are by any means serious.
I was a B class bucker after becoming tired of chopping trees that were down across roads with a pulaski, and going back to the office in a foul mood where the saw certifier was very kind and allowed me to wield a saw. He said I looked comfortable running a saw and gave me a card for up to 24 inches. The joke is that after 24", one loses all knowledge of how to buck a tree up. I then went to training every year to keep the certification. I had previously worked on a thinning crew before any certification program existed.
A very good professional faller never let me forget that I was "certified" and he was not. He went in to inquire about certification and was told not enough time was available to make him a Class C faller. He wanted to cut hazard trees along his daughter's school bus route voluntarily, and was told he'd have to go through certification , and that was not going to happen. When visiting a unit he was cutting on, I'd hear, COME AND TELL ME HOW TO CUT THIS TREE. AFTERALL, YOU ARE THE CERTIFIED CUTTER. My reply was always that I'd have to lie down and look up at it as I was merely a B Bucker.
Note: This is how it worked in Region 6.
An illustration of good production falling--not "dropping". Trees going in the direction preferred by the yarding crew, low stumps. limbs cut flush, very little damage to standing trees, all done by two experienced fallers.
slop; not a word of a lie in there, you know what you're talking about. All dead on, especially the part about falling the way the trees have to lie to be yarded out efficiently. 'Leave trees', PITA.
I remember our faller saying a good one should do 300 cubic meters a day in reasonable ground. 'Reasonable ground' in the Coast Mountains; means slopes under 30 degrees.
(No I didn't kill trees, I only drove the hearse; average 26,000 cubic meters/year, all by one faller. 'Daryl'; good at his work.)
I remember our faller saying a good one should do 300 cubic meters a day in reasonable ground. 'Reasonable ground' in the Coast Mountains; means slopes under 30 degrees.
(No I didn't kill trees, I only drove the hearse; average 26,000 cubic meters/year, all by one faller. 'Daryl'; good at his work.)
The timber fallers in my area said they liked working in partial cuts/commercial thins. On hot days, they had shade. Then they said they liked "having to think" or the challenge of getting a tree on the ground and not hung up. Me, being "the forester" had to stumble my way through the fell and buck to slap paint on additional trees when problems arose. In a cut tree marked unit, everything cut had to have paint on it and on the stump.
A good faller will follow instructions and know what to cut and what to leave. The guys who did the falling in the picture, went on to fall on some sales with some pretty complex thinking. They had to choose a leave tree, which had to be the largest diameter, and cut all the other merch trees in a specified distance around the leave tree. That took more time and....thinking. But it saved the timber sale buyer from having to hire additional people to mark trees in the unit.
Kodiak Kid
Idiot with a "power saw"
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My first job and introduction into the logging industry was running a power saw in a scaling yard bumping knots. I was pretty much homeless and living in my pickup. After about six moths of working up logs on skids in the yard truck after truck. The Siderod asked me if I wanted to give it a shot working the landing in the woods. I was all about because I now had an opportunity to live in the bunkhouse and possibly learn something new. However, they just kept me on the end of a 044 Cleaning up the limbs the Cutters couldn't get to on the bottom sides of the timber they fell. I was always envious of the Cut'n crew because of the hours they worked compared to the logging crew. Along with the prestigious job the Cutters did! Then came a time when the cutting crew was starting to fall behind and the loggers were on the cutters heals so the cutters had to work six days a week and the loggers only five. I then seized the opportunity to show an Intrest in learning how to fall timber. I talked to the Siderod and Bull Buck about going out with the cutters on Saturdays with no pay strictly volunteering my own time. They agreed to let me do it. I would go out every Saturday for several months just watching witch ever particular cutter I was with that day. Make there face cuts and study their techniques. They would usually tip two or three and I'd get to buck some of it. They rarely ever took time to explain any of their felling fundamentals and I never got the opportunity to actually face one up myself during this few months of half ass schooling on cut'n timber. After a good while the cutters were well ahead of the loggers again and my Saturdays of being a wannabe timber faller were over. After about another year of working the landing. The Bull Buck walked up to me and said the company wanted another cutter on the crew. Then he said, "you wanna break in cut'n timber with us" You should have seen the smile on my face! I invested pretty much all the money I had into a used 288XP and a brand spanking new 046 along with all the other nessasary gear a cutter needs. Monday morning I showed up at the gas and oil barrels a half hour before the rest of the cut'n crew. After everyone had filled their jugs. The Bull Buck told me to jump in the Crummy that Caz was driving and I'd be working with him first for next few months. We drove to the trial head and packed in to our strip. THAT WAS WHEN SCHOOL REALLY BEGAN!!!
I trained under several cutters throughout
my break in period. On their hip for several months. Then about a two week evaluation working with the Bull Buck. Then I was finally given my own strip! When the Bull Buck gave me a hand packing into my strip he set me jugs down and said "This is where I'd open up, but that's up to you. It's your strip. Be safe and I'll see you at the end of the day". After he was out of site I Started to cry a little from the reward that my dedication and willingness to learn gave me in return. The rest? Well, after almost 30 years on the saw now. The rest is history!
1996 shortly after breaking in.
Sorry about rhe picture quality. These are pics of pics before digital.
Cut safe, stay sharp, and be aware!
I trained under several cutters throughout
my break in period. On their hip for several months. Then about a two week evaluation working with the Bull Buck. Then I was finally given my own strip! When the Bull Buck gave me a hand packing into my strip he set me jugs down and said "This is where I'd open up, but that's up to you. It's your strip. Be safe and I'll see you at the end of the day". After he was out of site I Started to cry a little from the reward that my dedication and willingness to learn gave me in return. The rest? Well, after almost 30 years on the saw now. The rest is history!
1996 shortly after breaking in.
Sorry about rhe picture quality. These are pics of pics before digital.
Cut safe, stay sharp, and be aware!
WannabeFireFaller
ArboristSite Lurker
Haha I loved that story.My first job and introduction into the logging industry was running a power saw in a scaling yard bumping knots. I was pretty much homeless and living in my pickup. After about six moths of working up logs on skids in the yard truck after truck. The Siderod asked me if I wanted to give it a shot working the landing in the woods. I was all about because I now had an opportunity to live in the bunkhouse and possibly learn something new. However, they just kept me on the end of a 044 Cleaning up the limbs the Cutters couldn't get to on the bottom sides of the timber they fell. I was always envious of the Cut'n crew because of the hours they worked compared to the logging crew. Along with the prestigious job the Cutters did! Then came a time when the cutting crew was starting to fall behind and the loggers were on the cutters heals so the cutters had to work six days a week and the loggers only five. I then seized the opportunity to show an Intrest in learning how to fall timber. I talked to the Siderod and Bull Buck about going out with the cutters on Saturdays with no pay strictly volunteering my own time. They agreed to let me do it. I would go out every Saturday for several months just watching witch ever particular cutter I was with that day. Make there face cuts and study their techniques. They would usually tip two or three and I'd get to buck some of it. They rarely ever took time to explain any of their felling fundamentals and I never got the opportunity to actually face one up myself during this few months of half ass schooling on cut'n timber. After a good while the cutters were well ahead of the loggers again and my Saturdays of being a wannabe timber faller were over. After about another year of working the landing. The Bull Buck walked up to me and said the company wanted another cutter on the crew. Then he said, "you wanna break in cut'n timber with us" You should have seen the smile on my face! I invested pretty much all the money I had into a used 288XP and a brand spanking new 046 along with all the other nessasary gear a cutter needs. Monday morning I showed up at the gas and oil barrels a half hour before the rest of the cut'n crew. After everyone had filled their jugs. The Bull Buck told me to jump in the Crummy that Caz was driving and I'd be working with him first for next few months. We drove to the trial head and packed in to our strip. THAT WAS WHEN SCHOOL REALLY BEGAN!!!
I trained under several cutters throughout
my break in period. On their hip for several months. Then about a two week evaluation working with the Bull Buck. Then I was finally given my own strip! When the Bull Buck gave me a hand packing into my strip he set me jugs down and said "This is where I'd open up, but that's up to you. It's your strip. Be safe and I'll see you at the end of the day". After he was out of site I Started to cry a little from the reward that my dedication and willingness to learn gave me in return. The rest? Well, after almost 30 years on the saw now. The rest is history!
Cut safe, stay sharp, and be aware!
Thanks for sharing!
I'm in the same boat but 20 years older than you with a career and a family. I've been getting my kicks and experience doing local tree work (^58$@) "bush trees" and traveling to visit saw forum buddies and help them drop dead trees in their forests. Lots of fun.
Guilty of Treeson on Youtube has a video on 8 ways to cut a tree down.
I had a tree that had one branch off to the side, that hit the ground first..so it it the ground and did a rotating bounce. A little lesson for me there.
I had a dead tree that was going to turn into a leaner, but instead broke into lots of pieces, and rained wood from the sky. Be safe. I stepped away to a safe place.
I left the back cut at 3 inches out of 20 so it would not fall by itself. ...My friend backed up the truck 100 ft away, and it all happened.
It was time for a Carrick bend as well since my 150 foot rope would have left the truck too close, I needed 2 ropes. Pretension the truck rope before cutting anything. It was leaning back 5 degrees, so I planned to snap it off with the truck.
I had a tree that had one branch off to the side, that hit the ground first..so it it the ground and did a rotating bounce. A little lesson for me there.
I had a dead tree that was going to turn into a leaner, but instead broke into lots of pieces, and rained wood from the sky. Be safe. I stepped away to a safe place.
I left the back cut at 3 inches out of 20 so it would not fall by itself. ...My friend backed up the truck 100 ft away, and it all happened.
It was time for a Carrick bend as well since my 150 foot rope would have left the truck too close, I needed 2 ropes. Pretension the truck rope before cutting anything. It was leaning back 5 degrees, so I planned to snap it off with the truck.
I know a guy who used to be a fire faller now that I think about it...
Wyoming_Outback
ArboristSite Lurker
I learned by going out with my dad for the last 15 years. I second the Douglas Dent book. My dad has a signed copy of it. I watch a lot of Billy Ray and Guilt of Treeson videos as well. And of course, practice, practice, practice. Blowing to get out this summer with a neighbor who is a logger and help him with a 100 acre sale he snagged.
WannabeFireFaller
ArboristSite Lurker
Was he super cool?
I went unhappily on a 3 week tour of E. Oregon back in the day. We were a crew from SW Washington the State made up of people from various specialties. We were the last crew made up from our ranger district, after us, there was nobody crew qualified left to go. Our faller was a guy who had done production falling in W. Warshington. We were criticized for bringing such a big saw. (this saw and sawyer and our crew later became legend on this trip.--think Spartucus movie)
Week two, our faller was getting run ragged, because he was one of the more experienced guys on that fire. We all were losing weight and tired, but it was scary to see him losing weight. We'd go out and he'd get "borrowed".
There's more than being super cool. Prepare for horking up black stuff out of your lungs days after getting home. You are breathing ash and smoke. You are walking in "moon dust"--dust so fine it poofs up from footsteps. You are camping out in city parks, dusty meadows, pastures, etc. Generators are running all hours, porta potty doors slamming, tents zipping and unzipping. Sleep can be difficult, especially if you are on night shift and trying to sleep when it is 90 degrees out. People get sick, and then it runs through the crews. That latter part is why I avoided going to fires as much as I could. It seemed like I came home with a lovely case of bronchitus, and then had to stay home from my real job until I could breathe better.
Fire work is not super cool, it is filthy and bad for your health. It sucks. But it is an interesting, if not frustrating, experience.
From reading the comments on here, I wonder how many of the commenters actually fall trees/timber for a living? Not drop them, fall them in a direction that you determine prior to putting a saw to the tree? The comments just seem....flippant.
This a good descriptor of what it’s like. Hygiene is questionable, camp is loud, night shift sucks, you’re in all sorts of FUBAR situations, it’s not a pretty thing to experience. It’s very hard on your body. Maybe not as carcinogenic as structural firefighting, but you will go home more tired, beat up and lighter.
Did I mention the pay sucks too? There are a lot of guys/gals leaving the game right now, especially fed employees, because they’ve been abused for years and they’re not going to take it anymore, and yet the most they’re getting is lip service from USFS/BLM/NPS. State jobs pay a little better, and Cal Fire actually has figured out how to make it a career, but I’m fairly sure it’s not worth doing the job anymore.
Maybe you can get a contract as a single resource, but that requires a lot of training and work experience. I’m just at the point where I do stuff locally as a volunteer because I can go home every night and if I can’t go unfortunately it is what it is, even if the fires are small and we’re combined structural/brush in the urban interface.
WannabeFireFaller
ArboristSite Lurker
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I left my hand crew after two seasons honestly. I'd still love to do it but don't know if I'd want to make all those sacrifices again. Still other ways to learn I guess if I never end up going back.
Maybe a couple more seasons couldn't hurt but I need more experience before that.
It's hard.
You might want to explore working for the FS in western Oregon or Washington. That's where the more serious trees grow.
