Carbon Analysis On Piston Crown

[Nitroman]

A couple more polyolester oils to consider are: Silkolene Pro 2T, Maxima K2, and Motul 800 2T. Call me paranoid if you like, but I like the idea of running 32:1 if I can. I may just buy a bottle of each of these and see how they do. I may also just throw some R50 in there at 50:1 and see how that does. Yes, I know I'm over analyzing this, but I enjoy it.

Virtually all these oils are ISO-L-EDG, JASO FD, API TC rated. If you want more castor try Blendzall http://members.tripod.com/matt_87/products.html#Ultra.

I had all three of my Husky's tanks loaded with gas mix from last winter, hadn't started them for a full year (not much to cut during the summer here), and they all fired up on the fourth or fifth pull...but I run the 100LL.

 

[blsnelling]

We took two more saws apart tonight that have been running nothing but Klotz R50 and premium pump gas. They both look excellent. The only difference is where the fuel was bought. So maybe you guys that suggested a fuel issue were right. All of the fuel around here does have a little ethanol, but less than 10%. The fuel in these two saws was bought probably 30 miles from where I live, so definately a different fuel source.

As I mentioned earlier, this 440 is the worst I've seen. While I have seen carbon on the crown of my pistons in the past, it has looked nothing like this 440. Additionally, the plug color on this saw is unlike anything I've ever seen. My saws always have that cocoa brown color, where as this one was more of a charcoal color. I do know that different fuels can color a plug differently. Tomorrow I'm going to check my 084 that I've been running recently with the same mix.

Meanwhile, here are the pics from tonight. These pics are from Niks 361 that I ported and has seen probably a dozen tanks since then, similiar to what this 440 has seen. As usual, the parts look even better in real life. Pics tend to put everything under a microscope.

 

[stihlboy]

i think it may be the combustion chamber not allowing a complete burn,
its so hard to tell

 

[rms61moparman]

I tend to think fuel issue more than oil issue too.
I've been running my saws on Klotz or 50/50 klotz and dolmar oil and havent seen anything like your pics are showing.

I'm curious why the piston had so much carbon buildup and the cylinder looked like new.


Mike

 

[FATGUY]

Like Brad said, the pics made my 361 look worse than it did. We were all pleased as punch at how everything looked. Andre's saw looked amazing as well. I don't know what caused the excessive build up on Brad's piston, but I don't think it was the oil. I'll continue confidently with Klotz @ 32:1

 

[brad1000s]

Holly Cow fellas. Looks like she's a little lean. Yes Lean! The more oil means the less gas in the cylinder and she is getting the crown hot and baking the oil on. Try some where between 40:1-50:1. Less oil = more fuel = lower cylinder temps.

 

[FATGUY]

Holly Cow fellas. Looks like she's a little lean. Yes Lean! The more oil means the less gas in the cylinder and she is getting the crown hot and baking the oil on. Try some where between 40:1-50:1. Less oil = more fuel = lower cylinder temps.

I doubt that, look at the plug color.

 

[Andyshine77]

Holly Cow fellas. Looks like she's a little lean. Yes Lean! The more oil means the less gas in the cylinder and she is getting the crown hot and baking the oil on. Try some where between 40:1-50:1. Less oil = more fuel = lower cylinder temps.

The difference between 32:1 and 40:1 isn't all that much. From what I saw tonight I will definitely continue running 32:1 like I have for the passed 15+ years. I've seen over heated pistons before, that's not an over heated piston, and the saw's not running lean whatsoever, it's spot on in fact.

The pics Brad posted don"t give an accurate representation of how clean everything really looked. The combustion chambers on both saws were virtually carbon free, and the bottom ends looked brand new. I've come to the conclusion Klotz R50 isn't good oil, it's awesome oil.

 

[edisto]

As usual, the parts look even better in real life.

Like Brad said, the pics made my 361 look worse than it did.

The pics Brad posted don"t give an accurate representation of how clean everything really looked.

So, it's the camera that's adding the buildup?

Maybe Brad should take fewer pictures of his 440 piston...or borrow Tzed's camera.

 

[FATGUY]

So, it's the camera that's adding the buildup?

Maybe Brad should take fewer pictures of his 440 piston...or borrow Tzed's camera.

That's a litte snide isn't it? To answer your question, no, it's unburned fuel that's adding carbon. The camera just seems to be making it look worse than it is. I can assure you the combustion chamber looked as good as any I have seen. Tzed's is extraordinary, I've frankly never seen a cylinder that has any run time on it look that clean. What he seems to have there is a mechanical anomaly. I've never heard of an engine with 100% efficiency.

 

[edisto]

That's a litte snide isn't it? To answer your question, no, it's unburned fuel that's adding carbon. The camera just seems to be making it look worse than it is. I can assure you the combustion chamber looked as good as any I have seen. Tzed's is extraordinary, I've frankly never seen a cylinder that has any run time on it look that clean. What he seems to have there is a mechanical anomaly. I've never heard of an engine with 100% efficiency.

I generally shoot for "a lot snide". I must be losing my touch...

I know what you are trying to say, I just think it's funny to show pics, and have 3 quick followups saying how much better it looks than the pics. Like the reverse of the old infommercials:

"But wait! There's less!"

From a semantic standpoint, the camera shows the reality, because it picks up more detail. I get this all the time with photomicrographs pointing out things I can't see in the scope. So, it isn't better than it looks in the picture, it just looks better with your eyes than it really is.

I think it is unlikely that Tzed hit an anomaly that has 100% efficiency...but it is possible he has hit on the right mix of additives for that saw.

 

[FATGUY]

I generally shoot for "a lot snide". I must be losing my touch...

I know what you are trying to say, I just think it's funny to show pics, and have 3 quick followups saying how much better it looks than the pics. Like the reverse of the old infommercials:

"But wait! There's less!"

From a semantic standpoint, the camera shows the reality, because it picks up more detail. I get this all the time with photomicrographs pointing out things I can't see in the scope. So, it isn't better than it looks in the picture, it just looks better with your eyes than it really is.

fair enough.

I think it is unlikely that Tzed hit an anomaly that has 100% efficiency...but it is possible he has hit on the right mix of additives for that saw.

I think it's unlikely there was 12 or so tanks of fuel through that cylinder. Not that he said there was, but that's what is through mine

 

[edisto]

I think it's unlikely there was 12 or so tanks of fuel through that cylinder. Not that he said there was, but that's what is through mine

6-7 is what he said, so about half of what you had through.

 

[Termite]

I tend to think it is the fuel.
I don't know if anyone remembers the thread I started when my Dolmar401 lost all compression due to the piston ring stuck to the bottom of it's groove. My conclusion, with the help of some of you, was the additives in the racing gas caused the black goo.
I now run 100llavgas.
If that was winter gas it may of had some strange additives also.

 

[Andyshine77]

I generally shoot for "a lot snide". I must be losing my touch...

I know what you are trying to say, I just think it's funny to show pics, and have 3 quick followups saying how much better it looks than the pics. Like the reverse of the old infommercials:

"But wait! There's less!"

From a semantic standpoint, the camera shows the reality, because it picks up more detail. I get this all the time with photomicrographs pointing out things I can't see in the scope. So, it isn't better than it looks in the picture, it just looks better with your eyes than it really is.

I think it is unlikely that Tzed hit an anomaly that has 100% efficiency...but it is possible he has hit on the right mix of additives for that saw.

He took the pics with flash, it created lots of shadowing, and lots of reflection. Yes me Brad and Nik are lying about how everything looked in person. You really think anyone of us care about the results?? I have three different oil sitting on my desk right now that are likely just as good as R50, but after what saw last night I think I'm sticking with R50.

 

[Tzed250]

I think it's unlikely there was 12 or so tanks of fuel through that cylinder. Not that he said there was, but that's what is through mine

Nik, your saw shows X amount of deposits after 12 tanks.

My 660 shows Y amount of deposits after 6 tanks.

Y=0

If you extrapolate the data you will see that at 12 tanks Y will still equal zero.

Some of my OPE has hundreds of hours on it, and shows deposits like the examples in Brad's photos. They were run with orange bottle Stihl oil.

I feel the combo of Amoco Ultimate and Stihl Ultra is the cleanest around. Maybe the 1oz/gal. Klotz helps, maybe it doesn't.

Whatever the case may be, my results don't lie.


.

 

[FATGUY]

you results are outstanding, no question

 

[indiansprings]

Based on the accumualtion after on twelve tanks, it would be very concerning it were one of our work saws, during peak season some would prolly get 12 tanks or more run though them in a day. With that amount of build up, some of that crap is going to evetually flake off and start scoring the cylinder of the exhaust side. I'd dang sure want to find a solution before that stated occurring. Twelve tanks of use isn't anything, I wouldn't expect a saw to have any build up of signifigance with only twelve tanks, but then again, I don't tear them down unless they have an issue. Next new saw I buy I may just do it to have a look, I wouldn't be happy with any build up after only twelve tanks.

 

[porsche965]

Based on the accumualtion after on twelve tanks, it would be very concerning it were one of our work saws, during peak season some would prolly get 12 tanks or more run though them in a day. With that amount of build up, some of that crap is going to evetually flake off and start scoring the cylinder of the exhaust side. I'd dang sure want to find a solution before that stated occurring. Twelve tanks of use isn't anything, I wouldn't expect a saw to have any build up of signifigance with only twelve tanks, but then again, I don't tear them down unless they have an issue. Next new saw I buy I may just do it to have a look, I wouldn't be happy with any build up after only twelve tanks.

I agree and sure would like to see a real world working saw opened up after a dozen or so tanks.

I have found that using synthetic on a 30 year old Husky and it indeed cleaned up the top of the piston. This saw had a diet of the orange Stihl bottle oil all it's life. Yes the synthetic mix did send material out and score the cylinder on the exhaust side. Visually apparent but once the piston was cleaned back to the original machining marks the scoring lines have fainted and look like they will eventually wear away. Saw makes much better power than before and runs like a new saw IMO. 44cc Saw.

This only took 3 tanks of fuel running wide open in full cuts, bar buried. Mix was Amsoil/Klotz R50 Techniplate. 50/50. 42:1. I contribute the cleaning to the Klotz portion of the mix.

I since have switched because after talking with a Klotz technician a few weeks ago the R50 Techniplate has too high of a burn temp. for my application and I now use Stihl Ultra with 1/2 ounce of R50 Techniplate for a ratio of 41:1. The top of the pistons are remaining clean so far and the saws make great power. Will stay with this formula for awhile and see how it goes.

 

[edisto]

He took the pics with flash, it created lots of shadowing, and lots of reflection. Yes me Brad and Nik are lying about how everything looked in person. You really think anyone of us care about the results?? I have three different oil sitting on my desk right now that are likely just as good as R50, but after what saw last night I think I'm sticking with R50.

I'm not sure what part of my post that you quoted you have trouble difficulty understanding.

I didn't say any of you were lying, although you might be lying to yourself.

It doesn't matter how Brad took the picture, there is no question that Tzed's cylinder looks fantastic. You can say what you want about how great yours looked, it just doesn't get better than what Tzed showed.

If anyone reading this thread is looking for lubrication advice, or experimenting with oils, I'd be sticking with Tzed's advice.

Same as I would for lubing on assembly.