Catalytic vs Secondary Burn Technology Advantages?

[Idahonative]

I'm going to make a prediction: A few short years from now we will all look back and make a judgement on hybrid technology. Without some major improvements, hybrid technology will fail to be a real player in the industry and I say that regardless of who makes the stove. There just isn't any significant advantage over other, proven technologies. Will time prove me right or wrong? We shall see.

 

[JA600L]

Soon enough wood stove technology will find a new path. Probably ECU driven actuator with pre and post cat sensors like cars. We are only seeing the beginning of woodstove technology.

I'm sure with a "smart" ECU system Blaze Kings damper control system would finally be outdone. It all comes down to cost and reliability.

 

[Ambull01]

Just curious. How does Englanders warranty work if say you buy it from a big store like Home Depot. Does Home Depot handle any of the warranty or is it manufacturer direct?

Good question. The answer's probably somewhere on Hearth, I'll have to look for it and print that out too.

Soon enough wood stove technology will find a new path. Probably ECU driven actuator with pre and post cat sensors like cars. We are only seeing the beginning of woodstove technology.

I'm sure with a "smart" ECU system Blaze Kings damper control system would finally be outdone. It all comes down to cost and reliability.

I hope not, all that sounds expensive.

 

[JA600L]

I'm going to make a prediction: A few short years from now we will all look back and make a judgement on hybrid technology. Without some major improvements, hybrid technology will fail to be a real player in the industry and I say that regardless of who makes the stove. There just isn't any significant advantage over other, proven technologies. Will time prove me right or wrong? We shall see.

The advantage is there. If you are referring to longer burn then no. If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage. The advantage is during low burns you get the best technology. During high burns you get the best technology. Medium burns it decides which way to go. That is your advantage. A high burn rate can overwhelm a cat only stove.

A hybrid stove is sort of like having a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Mustang. You use the Corolla to save fuel and the Mustang when you need some muscle.

 

[Idahonative]

The advantage is there. If you are referring to longer burn then no. If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage. The advantage is during low burns you get the best technology. During high burns you get the best technology. Medium burns it decides which way to go. That is your advantage. A high burn rate can overwhelm a cat only stove.

A hybrid stove is sort of like having a Toyota Corolla and a Ford Mustang. You use the Corolla to save fuel and the Mustang when you need some muscle.

I agree hybrid's are clean burning but no cleaner than other cat stoves currently on the market. In fact, I can think of three cat stoves off the top of my head that are cleaner burning than the Ideal Steel (& will heat a home twice as long on the same wood).


"If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage." If that statement were true, the Ideal Steel, with it's 3.2 cf firebox, would be enjoying legendary real world burn/heat your home times. It is not.

"The advantage is during low burns you get the best technology." I'm pretty sure cat stoves thrive during low burns.

"A high burn rate can overwhelm a cat only stove." Uhh...What?


IMO, there is no advantage to hybrid technology and I think time will prove this.

 

[Marshy]

Soon enough wood stove technology will find a new path. Probably ECU driven actuator with pre and post cat sensors like cars. We are only seeing the beginning of woodstove technology.

I'm sure with a "smart" ECU system Blaze Kings damper control system would finally be outdone. It all comes down to cost and reliability.

Thats already a reality. Go take a look at the Froling boilers. I think there is a real advantage but that coms at a price. Higher up front cost and expensive repairs to electronics that you need specialized equipment to troubleshoot and resolve.

 

[Del_]

IMO, there is no advantage to hybrid technology and I think time will prove this.

Hybrid technology has the possibility of burning off some of the gasses before they reach the cat thereby extending cat life. The rare earth metals in the cat are consumed over time.

 

[Marshy]

Hybrid technology has the possibility of burning off some of the gasses before they reach the cat thereby extending cat life. The rare earth metals in the cat are consumed over time.

Although I agree with your statemnt, I do believe it is possible to over-fire a cat and damage it or shorten its life. Im not sure the exact temperature limitations this happens at but I believe its a valid concern. Maybe someone who know more and affirm this or explain how the Ideal Stove ensures this does not happen...

 

[Del_]

Although I agree with your statemnt, I do believe it is possible to over-fire a cat and damage it or shorten its life. Im not sure the exact temperature limitations this happens at but I believe its a valid concern. Maybe someone who know more and affirm this or explain how the Ideal Stove ensures this does not happen...

Flame impingement at hire firing rates eats away at the rare earth metals and can also thermally stress the substrate. That's were the two cat set up brought up earlier would have an advantage by switching between cats. Secondary air upstream of the last cat may further burn off some of the fuel load before the second cat sees it.

 

[JA600L]

That is kind of what I was getting at. The secondary burn takes the stress off the cat. Woodstock recommends running at a low to medium air setting. I would never run this stove wide open other then kindling. The most I will go is 50% and I rarely do that.

When you say catalytic stoves burn cleaner, that might be true at one particular burn rate. Not across the board though. At medium to high rates secondary burn offers a more complete burn. You have to think in regards to surface area of the combustion. Having the whole underside of the baffle on fire is going to make a lot more heat then any glowing cat will.

 

[JA600L]

If you didn't care about wood usage or burn time and all you wanted was max heat all of the time there would be no point to buying a cat stove. A tube stove does that much better.

A cat stove is for folks like you who want 30- 40 hour burns because you don't need any more heat then that.

I would say that a hybrid stove works best at delivering to the folks who need max heat more often then they do shoulder burns.

 

[Marshy]

If you didn't care about wood usage or burn time and all you wanted was max heat all of the time there would be no point to buying a cat stove. A tube stove does that much better.

A cat stove is for folks like you who want 30- 40 hour burns because you don't need any more heat then that.

I would say that a hybrid stove works best at delivering to the folks who need max heat more often then they do shoulder burns.

I dont think your answers have any basis to them and it is just your opinion. I think if you look closely at other Cat stoves you will see very comparable maximum heat output ratings as secondary burn stoves have. Also, EPA only tests emission particulate at one air setting so it is true the emissions may very at different burn settings but I have not read or found any tests that measure particulate at higher operating settings. Therefore (IMO) no one can claim any different than what is published...

 

[JA600L]

http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/low-epa-emissions-across-all-outputs.html?m=1

 

[Chris-PA]

"If we are talking about lower emissions and more total heat staying in your house then yes there is an advantage." If that statement were true, the Ideal Steel, with it's 3.2 cf firebox, would be enjoying legendary real world burn/heat your home times. It is not.

• If two stoves have similar particulate emissions, then they have similar combustion efficiencies (i.e. they extract the same energy from the fuel load).
• Since the stove is in your living space, then that heat energy is in your living space after extraction from the wood.
• There is only one way for the heat energy to leave your living space after extraction from the wood without warming the room - it would have to go up the flue (stack loss).

What is the reason you propose that makes the BK have multiple times less stack loss as you have claimed? What is different?

 

[JA600L]

I am referring to across the board burn rate. Obviously, during a low cat burn its going to be similar. But at variable air settings if you have more complete combustion (hybrid) you gain a more complete burn in the firebox instead of emissions out the chimney. I'm sure it is not a night and day difference or anything.

 

[JA600L]

The other thing is that I believe catalytic stoves are not given the same volume of air on a high burn. I'm guessing because the cat may overheat, or not be able to keep up with the flow of emissions. Whereas a hybrid might be able to handle more flow and keep up utilizing secondary air.

I noticed that the Ideal Steel has a higher btu output then the BK King. That could be why? Just a thought.

OR compare the Progress Hybrid to the Princess max btu rating.

I'm just assuming that a given size catalytic converter can only be effective within a certain parameter of air flow. Once again, please correct me if I'm wrong. This is all just theory.

 

[Marshy]

http://blog.woodstove.com/2013/12/low-epa-emissions-across-all-outputs.html?m=1

Thats great that went to that length to document that, I wish there was a more robust and standard test that all manufactures had to follow to document emissions at different BTU settings. Keep it mind, its good info but doesnt mean that stove outshines other unless others have tested in the same manner.

Honestly I'd like to learn more about the testing standards but I have other priorities.

 

[Oldman47]

It seems to me that Woodstock is saying that most stove manufacturers do not test at varying burn rates because they would fail the EPA tests at those burn rates. Instead they test where they can while still meeting the requirements. The IS in particular is designed to overcome that problem so that they can use higher BTU ratings and still pass while having low burn capability that also passes. For get about the secondary vs cat argument because they are trying to attain the best of both worlds and still meet requirements with their hybrid. If I were one of their competitors I would try out some of the principles they have used to try to improve my own product line, not start a fight over what has been best in the past.

 

[JA600L]

I agree. I'm not sure why the hybrid technology is met with so much criticism. It's newer and scary I suppose. Companies like Woodstock who always preached catalytic technology have come to learn they can do better then just catalytic and are doing so. Why else would they do it?

 

[Idahonative]

The IS in particular is designed to overcome that problem so that they can use higher BTU ratings and still pass while having low burn capability that also passes.

Does the EPA require manufacturers to pass different burn rate tests? If not, what's the point? Wouldn't the manufacturers want to focus on passing what the EPA requires?

[/QUOTE].If I were one of their competitors I would try out some of the principles they have used to try to improve my own product line[/QUOTE]

Why in the world would a competitor want to? What's the benefit? If hybrid technology was the benchmark in the industry, I could see your point. The fact is (at least at this time), there just isn't any significant benefit over current technology.