Chaps

[RandyMac]

That's the opposite of what I am saying Randy. Luck is fickle runs out. Skill and experience take time to develop. And even skilled and experienced workers can be surprised by something new, or unexpected. PPE does not make you safe to do stupid things, or things beyond your abilities. It hedges your bet that you will be able to keep working, rather than taking a 'SH*T HAPPENS' attitude. It goes along with work skills, maintaining your equipment, 'the proper mindset', etc.

Philbert

I recognize that the audience you are trying to reach, are not professionals, they are mostly beginners or occasional users. As such they most likely won't have the time or place to test their limits, PPE has benefits for their usage. Lack of training and access to diversified working environments, hampers development of skills as well as self-knowledge of personal ability.

 

[Philbert]

I recognize that the audience you are trying to reach, are not professionals, they are mostly beginners or occasional users. As such they most likely won't have the time or place to test their limits, PPE has benefits for their usage. Lack of training and access to diversified working environments, hampers development of skills as well as self-knowledge of personal ability.

I was handed a chainsaw at 16 and shown how to start it. It was 30 years before I ever read a manual or attended any training. As I learned about some the things that can happen, and do happen, and the extent of injuries, I realized that I had been lucky all that time, not necessarily safe.

One of the amazing things about this site is the different perspectives, based on different experiences.

Philbert

 

[zogger]

I was handed a chainsaw at 16 and shown how to start it. It was 30 years before I ever read a manual or attended any training. As I learned about some the things that can happen, and do happen, and the extent of injuries, I realized that I had been lucky all that time, not necessarily safe.

One of the amazing things about this site is the different perspectives, based on different experiences.

Philbert

Personally, I see no reason why training/experience, and proper equipment can't be combined. One or the other exclusively..you lose the added benefits. Both combined, best of both worlds.

 

[Sagetown]

I recognize that the audience you are trying to reach, are not professionals, they are mostly beginners or occasional users. As such they most likely won't have the time or place to test their limits, PPE has benefits for their usage. Lack of training and access to diversified working environments, hampers development of skills as well as self-knowledge of personal ability.

We have a much different audience today than we did yesterday, I agree.
Yesterday; as a young tad of a boy you educated yourself with the chores assigned you. Like herding 100 blue geese into the barn hallway for plucking their down feathers. The mean ganders would beat you black and blue with their wings if they could get hold of ya. Then there was the old milk cow that'd kick yer head off if you let your guard down. And the old biddy hen you had to keep an eye on when gathering the eggs. Not counting the snakes that might be in the nestboxes. If you made it by the time you were 12 years old you got your turn at harnessing the 3 teams of mules to the plows and wagons. Now you talk about getting into some whiz ding situations, try that one. So, by the time you were ready to do a man's job you pretty much had enough sense to go at it with everything you've learned in the past, and all you can learn at the present. It's a life, limb, and death experience.

 

[ivestertree]

here is a idea ....if you want to have the kids learn anything today it has to come from a video game so lets make it happen guys ....lol

 

[Cider]

Remember too that in days gone by, a chainsaw was a specialist bit of kit, owned by specialist guys, to do specialist things. It also would have had a horrible power-to-weight ratio and taken a strong arm to wield it. I'll bet a lot of you more experienced guys cut your teeth on slower, heavier machines than your sons are learning on. And I bet some of you still witnessed your buddies get bitten along the way. You reckon it was all some kind of Darwinian filtering process to remove the stupid ones from the gene pool? How do their families see it?

Today, any person of any age or level of competence can buy a seriously potent machine without exchanging a single word with a living soul. It's natural and right that safety kit and awareness have improved. If you reckon you can go without it that's your business, but don't ridicule it.

As a newbie I really don't see what the impost is. There are things I do all the time that I have to dress appropriately for, sawing is just another one.

 

[zogger]

Remember too that in days gone by, a chainsaw was a specialist bit of kit, owned by specialist guys, to do specialist things. It also would have had a horrible power-to-weight ratio and taken a strong arm to wield it. I'll bet a lot of you more experienced guys cut your teeth on slower, heavier machines than your sons are learning on. And I bet some of you still witnessed your buddies get bitten along the way. You reckon it was all some kind of Darwinian filtering process to remove the stupid ones from the gene pool? How do their families see it?

Today, any person of any age or level of competence can buy a seriously potent machine without exchanging a single word with a living soul. It's natural and right that safety kit and awareness have improved. If you reckon you can go without it that's your business, but don't ridicule it.

As a newbie I really don't see what the impost is. There are things I do all the time that I have to dress appropriately for, sawing is just another one.

100%, thumbs up.

 

[Sagetown]

As a newbie I really don't see what the impost is. There are things I do all the time that I have to dress appropriately for, sawing is just another one.

Exactly the way to go. Today we don't have to take risks like we did back then.

 

[RandyMac]

Remember too that in days gone by, a chainsaw was a specialist bit of kit, owned by specialist guys, to do specialist things. It also would have had a horrible power-to-weight ratio and taken a strong arm to wield it. I'll bet a lot of you more experienced guys cut your teeth on slower, heavier machines than your sons are learning on. And I bet some of you still witnessed your buddies get bitten along the way. You reckon it was all some kind of Darwinian filtering process to remove the stupid ones from the gene pool? How do their families see it?

Today, any person of any age or level of competence can buy a seriously potent machine without exchanging a single word with a living soul. It's natural and right that safety kit and awareness have improved. If you reckon you can go without it that's your business, but don't ridicule it.

As a newbie I really don't see what the impost is. There are things I do all the time that I have to dress appropriately for, sawing is just another one.

Days gone by? Just how far back are you going? The consumer chainsaw market kicked in strong before 1965, with McCulloch's 10 series and Homelite's XL12. Ranch/farm grade chainsaws go back to the mid 1950s. There were certainly "specialist's" saws, the cost of which kept them out of casual hands. On the subject of getting bitten, most industrial injuries do not involve sawchain wounds, mostly impact and crushing. Certainly there were some, I didn't see any and I have never been cut by a moving chain. Yes, you needed to be strong to operate the older saws efficiently, but they were not the clumsy, under-powered avils that vintage saws are portrayed as. McCulloch's first hot-rod was the Super 44A, in 1959, Homelite was close behind with an ever improving series of vertical cylinder models. One was considered so good, a well known German company made a thinly disguised version of their own.
Was there a Darwinian process? Of course, every human endeavor is subject to that form of attrition, logging, then and now shows it, even in highly regulated BC. Good Lord, to be encumbered with all that gear, forced on them by the NannyState.
I am from a different place and time, but the principles of self preservation have not changed. If you feel that your competency level requires that you swaddle yourself with high tech gear, have at it, but do not disparage those who choose not to.

 

[CTYank]

I was lucky back then, working college summers with a real pro arborist, with daily demonstrations of how it was done. Before chain-brakes, ear protection, kevlar, etc. And I saw how the surgeons put a couple of his fingers back together. If it could happen to him ... Then I learned from others abut what could happen if ...

They got my attention as to what could happen in an instant for no good reason at all. Since really good PPE is such cheap insurance, it makes good sense to use it whenever possible. Belt & suspenders approach. Except, for me, when it's hot out there, if possible I pass on the chaps and make sure to fully engage brain. Brain-fade can cause bad things to happen, y'know. Gotta balance things.

I've never encountered a sawyer who felt invulnerable in PPE. In fact, it reminded of the dangers.

Nothing wrong with hedging your bets, Randy. No shame in that. One's family might prefer it, besides insurance companies.

 

[treeslayer2003]

i agree Randy. you guys should wear your chaps.........i will not. i have wore them....fell down alot with um on.....brush in the straps and they get heavy when soaked. i feel for those guys forced to wear 50lbs of ppe and try to work all day in the woods. shoot these so called forestry helmets take your vision and hearing away, how can you see or hear whats going on?
you won't see many loggers over 40 wearing all that stuff........but by all means y'all wear it but keep in mind it will not save you if make a stupid mistake. it is not an excuse for common sense and having your brain tuned in.

 

[RandyMac]

The "I have PPE and fear nothing" attitude is pervasive, includes airbags and too many LEDS on cars and motorcycles. Self preservation is a mindset, too bad that is giving way to the safety armor mindset.
I knew and was prepared for the risks I took and didn't always escape unscathed, no PPE would have prevented what happened. I did use proper gear when warranted and not just in the woods and it served it's purpose. Regardless of the type or use of PPE, it will not prevent the idiots from operating well beyond the scope of their competence. I see prime examples every day.

 

[MCW]

So what you guys are saying is that a helmet doesn't offer protection against a half tonne limb falling from 100 feet? You sure?

Dammit

 

[KenJax Tree]

IMO PPE gives some a false sense of security.

 

[Sagetown]

The "I have PPE and fear nothing" attitude is pervasive, includes airbags and too many LEDS on cars and motorcycles. Self preservation is a mindset, too bad that is giving way to the safety armor mindset.
I knew and was prepared for the risks I took and didn't always escape unscathed, no PPE would have prevented what happened. I did use proper gear when warranted and not just in the woods and it served it's purpose. Regardless of the type or use of PPE, it will not prevent the idiots from operating well beyond the scope of their competence. I see prime examples every day.

Even though I was issued a Flak Vest, Gas Mask, Helmet in Viet Nam, I hated to don that stuff. The mask was too cumbersome to carry, the vest was hot n heavy, and the helmet gave me a krick in the neck. So, more often than not, I didn't wear the stuff. Just a full bandoleer, couple o grenades, and knives, my AR, and whole lotta your Self Preservation MindSet.

 

[RandyMac]

I have a friend who was a Screaming Eagle, spent his time in A Shau Valley.

 

[Sagetown]

I have a friend who was a Screaming Eagle, spent his time in A Shau Valley.

Isn't that the bunch Gen Westmorland used for his escorts? He came to our Vietnamese Camp once. Choppers everywhere, and seems like it was those guys.

 

[RandyMac]

Isn't that the bunch Gen Westmorland used for his escorts? He came to our Vietnamese Camp once. Choppers everywhere, and seems like it was those guys.

Might have been some of them, Jim packed an M60, played around Hue in '68.

 

[Sagetown]

Might have been some of them, Jim packed an M60, played around Hue in '68.

Yep; me too '68' up north DaNang.

 

[RandyMac]

Jim didn't talk much, but I was looking at photos of the brown water Navy Monitors, he said they were used as bait for them.