Chimney questions

[p575]

I'm looking at installing a chimney in my house that currently does not have one. Ive read a fair amount and I think I can go with a DuraVent through the wall system and be good. I think my walls are 2x6 construction and I'll have an eave to clear, so I think I'd need a longer through the wall pipe to get the proper standoff outside, but it looks like those are available. I've also seen a support bracket that sticks further off the house as well (I can also weld, so fabricating something to do that wouldn't be a problem). The only instructions I can find for this system say that it needs a clearance of 2 inches from combustable materials. I assume that I can go through a stud cavity in the wall and be fine on those clearances. It looks like you simply cut away 2 extra inches of drywall, insulation, plywood, and siding before putting the pipe through the wall, and then the kit has the trim pieces that cover the gap. I'll need somewhere in the neighborhood of 15' of pipe outside to get the proper height (2 story cape cod with a dormer in the way), but it looks like this system is made to support that much pipe. How far above the final support are these cable of staying upright? It could be secured to the eave, but I'd probably have a good 8' above that, would it require additional bracing?
On the inside, should single wall pipe be ran from the stove into the wall thimble?
I just checked with our local stove shop today, and they quoted me about $5500 for the materials and an additional $2000 for the install. Is there any reason a fairly handy guy that isn't afraid of ladders can't do this himself? With the Duravent parts, it looks to be about $1500 worth of materials and probably an additional $200 or so for misc. parts and pieces I forgot. A far cry better than $7500...
Lastly, I'm trying to work this into qualifying for the tax credit. There seems to be some conflicting info, some sources say that chimneys are covered, but I've also seen "The tax credit for biomass stoves applies to the cost of the unit plus installation fees which include proper venting. Since wood and pellet stoves do not require a chimney, the EPA wood stove tax credit likely won't cover the cost of a chimney." Can anyone speak as to whether or not they've seen chimneys get covered or declined under this? I know the IRS is terrible, but I don't think even they would try to run a wood stove without a chimney...

I know this is a lot of questions, but any insight that you could provide would be much appreciated!

 

[BeatCJ]

First, I would look into permitting and inspections requirements in your area. In my area, they are relatively unreasonable now. Luckily, mine was installed before things really got out of control.

DuraVent is pretty well designed. I would not be uncomfortable doing whatever their system recommends.

As for the EPA Wood Stove credit, my code requires a minimum flue height. I don't see where they could not allow that, if it is a design requirement. That's probably an accountant question. I think @MustangMike probably has some knowledge.

 

[sean donato]

Which specific dura vent kit are you looking at using? I've used their triple wall insulated kit on the house, and the shop has selkirk (owned by dura vent) double wall insualted chimney in the shop. They have similar requirements as far as spacing to combustible materials, but the selkirk brand is a much better system, and has a smaller out side diameter. I actually wouldn't reccomend using the triple walled version after using the double walled version in the shop. It's a lot nicer system to install and doesn't have the unneeded bulk, and has the same class A rating.
Something else to consider, is the vertical section of pipe needs wall brackets every so many feet to support the pipe. So by you wanting to go around your eve vs going through it will take a lot more effort in making up spacers to go behind the support brackets as well. Truthfully, I'd just go through the eve, but the original chimney in my house went through the eve already so it wasn't much effort on my part when installing the new chimney. However it will be a much cleaner installation keeping the pipe close to the house where it's supposed to be.
Support above the roof is needed after 4 feet of vertical pipe. (This is all detailed in the instructions.)
Single walled pipe is perfectly fine inside the house, given you have proper clearances to combustible materials. Neither the house or shop runs the janky double walked black pipe in the house. I have plenty of clearance in both cases though.
needing a chimney vs not needing one would depend on the specific stove/ furnace you get, however I've never seen a wood stove/ furnace that didn't need a chimney. I'm not familiar enough with pellet stoves to comment. Natural draft vs forced draft would certainly make a difference. but, usually code requires the exhaust to be vented so many feet above the highest point of the roof for solid fuel furnaces/ wood stoves. So I would plan on a chimney being needed.
I can't give advise on the tax credit, but neither of my chimneys by themselves qualified for any credits.
I will end, with most of your questions about instillation are answered in the directions that come in the base install kits, and I'm certain you can download them as pdf from the duravent website.
Second, as it seems you're quite unfamiliar with the requirements, I would suggest you get a chimney company out there to do the work, or at least get a quote for what they reccomend. Out side of the manufacturers requirements, you still have any local requirements that need met too + possible permits and inspections by the county and or your insurance company.

 

[dboyd351]

I am thinking there is some confusion regarding chimney versus stovepipe. To me, chimney implies something like brick or stone cemented i place by mortar versus the pipe construction of a stovepipe.
So in that sense the woodstove does not require a chimney, only a stovepipe.
Here's a picture of the support i use on the upper stovepipe at my house. Have had no problems using this. With the help of a friend who had experience with stoves, we installed my stove and stovepipe.

 

[sean donato]

I am thinking there is some confusion regarding chimney versus stovepipe. To me, chimney implies something like brick or stone cemented i place by mortar versus the pipe construction of a stovepipe.
So in that sense the woodstove does not require a chimney, only a stovepipe.
Here's a picture of the support i use on the upper stovepipe at my house. Have had no problems using this. With the help of a friend who had experience with stoves, we installed my stove and stovepipe.View attachment 1228968

While it could be defined as "stove pipe" ("pipe of large diameter usually of sheet steel used as a stove chimney or to connect a stove with a flue" sic, MW dictionary.) It would be misleading to call it such.
If you refer to the nfpa section 211, under "connecting". "Stoves are connected to chimney inlets with uncovered sheet
metal pipe generally known as stove pipe or smoke pipe." You would see, your picture does not meet that definition.
Futher if you refer to "installing connecting pipe to chimney." It furthers breaks down masonry ve prefabricated chimneys.
So what you have pictured is a "premanufactured chimney" and not a stove pipe.
I attached screenshot of the pertinent nfpa 211, for your reading pleasure.

 

[JRM]

Insurance companies can be slimy. My first step would be to contact them to see what their requirements are RE insured installer vs DIY. And I'd want their response in writing.

 

[sean donato]

Insurance companies can be slimy. My first step would be to contact them to see what their requirements are RE insured installer vs DIY. And I'd want their response in writing.

They are a bunch of educated idiots, and most have zero clue what they are talking about. All the issues I had with them during the replacement of my old masonry chimney, and them telling me I had to use class A triple wall insulated chimney or replace with traditional masonry chimney was total bs, as I found out later when I had a certified chimney inspector come out to check over everything after the installation was complete.
You'd be much better served to just get a professional out, that does it for a living vs going off the insurance companies idiot that has zero clue.

 

[JRM]

Not all professionals do every job correctly nor will they pay for repairs in the event of a fire. I'd not do an indoor DIY stove install without including my insurance company. And because I don't trust them I'd want their blessing in writing. Your leaving the door open for a claim denial.

 

[JRM]

Laugh all you want, the OP is asking for advice and doing this job to the expectations of your insurance company is the most critical step. Here is 2 seconds of googling. I'll bet you a steak dinner your insurance company has similar requirements.


https://www.progressive.com/answers/do-fireplaces-impact-insurance/

 

[sean donato]

Not all professionals do every job correctly nor will they pay for repairs in the event of a fire. I'd not do an indoor DIY stove install without including my insurance company. And because I don't trust them I'd want their blessing in writing. Your leaving the door open for a claim denial.

I've already done this dance with them. They don't understand the nfpa, which they claim to follow, their "inspectors" arnt certified in any way, shape or form, and they have zero clue what they are doing. Listening to them, is why I went with triple wall insualted chimney vs double wall insulated chimney on the house. Both of which carry the same exact class A rating, the double wall, also carried the high temp rating, which the triple wall does not. Didn't know that, because I just listened to the insurance company.
Hence, the need to get your own, independent certified inspectors. As per local code, which in my case follows the NFPA, any class A chimney, masonry, or prefabricated installed following the manufacturers instructions and guidelines set forth in the NFPA can't be denied from coverage.

 

[sean donato]

Laugh all you want, the OP is asking for advice and doing this job to the expectations of your insurance company is the most critical step. Here is 2 seconds of googling. I'll bet you a steak dinner your insurance company has similar requirements.


https://www.progressive.com/answers/do-fireplaces-impact-insurance/

And that means zero..... did this dance, my house is heated solely with wood. Still have insurance, will continue to have insurance as all my chimneys meet the codes which all insurance companies adhere to.

 

[JRM]

From the link.

Do wood-burning stoves have different insurance requirements?
Yes. Wood-burning stoves are an added risk which increase the probability of a fire loss. Insurance companies have different requirements before they will insure a home with a wood-burning stove as the sole source of heat than they might for a home with a fireplace. Some companies might require wood-burning stoves to be professionally installed and undergo a safety inspection, while others may only require a photograph of where the wood stove has been installed.

Still, other insurance companies may determine that wood-burning stoves render homes ineligible for homeowners insurance if they are the primary heat source. Other insurers may apply a wood-burning stove surcharge. Certain states have eligibility qualifications surrounding the wood-burning stove being used as a primary source of heat, which could make the house ineligible for coverage. Even if a wood-burning stove isn't the primary heat source, it will likely increase your homeowners insurance cost.

 

[JRM]

And that means zero..... did this dance, house is heated solely with wood. I already posted the sections of the NFPA that directly apply.

If your insurance company has a clause that exempts them from covering damages if you did not follow their requirements I'd not want to be you in the event of a fire. If you want to hedge your bet that there won't be a fire because it was installed to code that's your right, but I wouldn't be giving that kind of advice out on a public forum.

 

[sean donato]

If your insurance company has a clause that exempts them from covering damages if you did not follow their requirements I'd not want to be you in the event of a fire. If you want to hedge your bet that there won't be a fire because it was installed to code that's your right, but I wouldn't be giving that kind of advice out on a public forum.

see, there's your problem. You didn't read what I wrote. I installed an inferior chimney at their request, because they wanted a specific chimney. (Which is installed in the house, and wood is the only heat source.) I suggested getting someone that knows about chimneys to go over your system, and you are fear mongering that the insurance company is always right. They ARE NOT. And I will not reccomend going solely off what they say. Hire a professional in that field.

 

[JRM]

see, there's your problem. You didn't read what I wrote. I installed an inferior chimney at their request, because they wanted a specific chimney. (Which is installed in the house, and wood is the only heat source.) I suggested getting someone that knows about chimneys to go over your system, and you are fear mongering that the insurance company is always right. They ARE NOT. And I will not reccomend going solely off what they say. Hire a professional in that field.

I read and comprehended exactly what you wrote. What you seem to be missing is not all ins are the same. AND if you don't go through the channels and get YOUR ins companies blessing you are opening the door for denial in the event of a loss. If the OP insurance requires a licensed installer and he chooses to do the work on his own he is opening the door for denial. If his ins company requires a post installation inspection and he does not comply he is opening the door for denial. To tell someone to circumvent their insurance company through this process is asinine

 

[sean donato]

I read and comprehended exactly what you wrote. What you seem to be missing is not all ins are the same. AND if you don't go through the channels and get YOUR ins companies blessing you are opening the door for denial in the event of a loss. If the OP insurance requires a licensed installer and he chooses to do the work on his own he is opening the door for denial. If his ins company requires a post installation inspection and he does not comply he is opening the door for denial. To tell someone to circumvent their insurance company through this process is asinine

To tell them to rely solely on their insurance companies advise is asinine. As I found out over the years, they are there to cover as little as possible, often times, agents not having a clue what they are talking about, and no real knowledge of codes, or local laws, especially when it come to heating a home with a solid fuel appliance. I wish, someone would have told me hire a professional before bowing down to the insurance companies advice, if I had I would have the same chimney in the house as what's used in the shop. Both of which are certified Class A chimneys for use in solid fuel appliances. Which is what the insurance companies require, as per the NFPA.

 

[JR Hill]

The first thing I thought about was future maintenance. If you can go straight up and through the roof or get by with a minimal 45d jog if needed it will make cleaning so very much easier and effective. If you have to go out a side wall and then up try to have the least sharp angles possible. Makes for a better draft too.

 

[JRM]

To tell them to rely solely on their insurance companies advise is asinine.

Your putting words in my mouth. I said I would not do an install they would not approve of, and I'd want their approval in writing. Big difference. Go back and read what i said. It's their rules, either abide by them or not, and assume the risk, or more smartly move on to another ins company if you dont like what they are telling you. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, some ins require licensed installers. Some ins won't even allow wood as a primary source of heat. In that scenario it Doesn't really matter if it was done to code does it? To tell someone to not consult with their ins is bad advice.

 

[JR Hill]

Your putting words in my mouth. I said I would not do an install they would not approve of, and I'd want their approval in writing. Big difference. Go back and read what i said. It's their rules, either abide by them or not, and assume the risk, or more smartly move on to another ins company if you dont like what they are telling you. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, some ins require licensed installers. Some ins won't even allow wood as a primary source of heat. In that scenario it Doesn't really matter if it was done to code does it? To tell someone to not consult with their ins is bad advice.

When we built I had a precaution about this issue. Having a woodburner as sole heat is an easy way to be declined for an insurance policy. So I installed a ProCom propane ventless (for the whole cabin) and when our agent came for the walk through for pictures and notes the woodburner came up quickly. I told him it was for mood and emergencies and the Propane was our primary. He winked at me and wrote it down. He's a rural guy too. In 14 years I think I have ignited it a half dozen times. I actually hate it as while it's 'clean' we're gonna need fresh air and I WILL crack a window if it's going. And the ventless adds a BUNCH of humidity inside as a byproduct.

That was a long time ago. Now days insurance companies are looking to eliminate just about any minor risk especially if ya might live in a higher risk area.

 

[sean donato]

Your putting words in my mouth. I said I would not do an install they would not approve of, and I'd want their approval in writing. Big difference. Go back and read what i said. It's their rules, either abide by them or not, and assume the risk, or more smartly move on to another ins company if you dont like what they are telling you. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, some ins require licensed installers. Some ins won't even allow wood as a primary source of heat. In that scenario it Doesn't really matter if it was done to code does it? To tell someone to not consult with their ins is bad advice.

Telling someone to bow down to a company that works for you is bad advice. Period. We've been heating houses in the usa with wood since it's inception, their use is highly regulated, and the insurance companies must follow the same rules for coverage the same as any other heat source. You can talk to them all you want, at the end of the day, they cannot deny coverage, all or in part because you heat your house with wood.
I've already been down this road. I can get insurance with whatever company I want, with zero issues. That's the difference between knowing the law, and being pushed over by those that don't want to do their jobs.