Chipper Safety Consensus Poll
- Thread starter jomoco
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STLfirewood
Addicted to ArboristSite
It just comes down to you can fix stupid.
Scott
Duh! I meant you can't fix stupid. But I guess it works both ways
Scott
Canyonbc
Addicted to ArboristSite
Haha true...
Still dont think it would be to bad of a idea that Jomoco is coming up with...maybe not for safety but then for tools...seems to me it would be cheaper to ad this extra magnetic thing...than replacing some parts on your chipper.
I consider a chipper much more dangerous than a chainsaw. Any device detecting limbs in the proximity of the rollers would be great. I'm a bit tired of both "terrible and gruesome" chipper accident reports and comments about IQ of the victims.
Probably not, but when government safety agencies begin putting company managers, owners and directors in jail, then ways to end this problem are going to appear quickly.
RedlineIt
ArboristSite Guru
As an OHSA employee representative I have had access to numerous accident reports and investigations regarding death and/or dismemberment due to operation of chippers, large and small.
In every single instance that I have had to review, the cause came down to operator error. Every single damned one.
In order of frequency, this is how chippers eat people and body parts:
1: Lack of training, operator had never been given the manual.
2: Operating the chipper in ways expressly forbidden by the manufacturers manual, ie: jumping into the feed tray and stomping brush into the feed wheels with their feet.
3. Safety features provided by manufacturer inoperable due to lack of maintenance, or outright defeating of safety feature by operator.
4. Lack of manufacturer recommended PPE, ie: no safety glasses, eyeball ruined or plucked out.
In not one single case of death or dismemberment that I have had the opportunity to review has the lack of safety features or manufacturer fault been at issue.
RedlineIt
In every single instance that I have had to review, the cause came down to operator error. Every single damned one.
In order of frequency, this is how chippers eat people and body parts:
1: Lack of training, operator had never been given the manual.
2: Operating the chipper in ways expressly forbidden by the manufacturers manual, ie: jumping into the feed tray and stomping brush into the feed wheels with their feet.
3. Safety features provided by manufacturer inoperable due to lack of maintenance, or outright defeating of safety feature by operator.
4. Lack of manufacturer recommended PPE, ie: no safety glasses, eyeball ruined or plucked out.
In not one single case of death or dismemberment that I have had the opportunity to review has the lack of safety features or manufacturer fault been at issue.
RedlineIt
alpha115
ArboristSite Lurker
Have to agree with RedlineIt. You amass all the safety features you want and can ever dream of but like clearance so state:
"Make something idiot proof and they will make a better idiot"
The biggest thing that should be happening is more education, whether it be from the manufacturer or the company owner (granted the smaller companies could and might just be teaching bad habits, but that can be fixed ).
Soon enough it will come to having two people to run the chipper one as the feeder and another as the safety watch,this in turn will drive up the prices. Cause and Effect......
Thus in turn forcing more people to go to a rental outlet. Rent a saw, spurs,and a chipper. (with no guidance from the rental store) and fall a tree on the power line , fall out of said tree, or chip him/herself thus starting this dicussion all over again.
More education.........
Keep in mind that more,
safety features + the more electronics involved = more down time.
"Make something idiot proof and they will make a better idiot"
The biggest thing that should be happening is more education, whether it be from the manufacturer or the company owner (granted the smaller companies could and might just be teaching bad habits, but that can be fixed ).
Soon enough it will come to having two people to run the chipper one as the feeder and another as the safety watch,this in turn will drive up the prices. Cause and Effect......
Thus in turn forcing more people to go to a rental outlet. Rent a saw, spurs,and a chipper. (with no guidance from the rental store) and fall a tree on the power line , fall out of said tree, or chip him/herself thus starting this dicussion all over again.
More education.........
Keep in mind that more,
safety features + the more electronics involved = more down time.
Last edited:
Safety features are there, just groundsmen are idiots. Come and chip with me some hawthorn on nice hot and humid Friday afternoon.
RedlineIt
ArboristSite Guru
adam,
Being an OHSA employee safety rep meant about eight hours a month of desk time, attending an annual conference, and the chance to occasionally meet with manufacturers/distributors.
The rest of the time it was climb, cut, drag, chip in Etobicoke, Mississauga, Brampton, Oakville. 34c, 99% humidity, I know all about it. I left that godforsaken, gridlocked, sprawling wasteland when I tired of it's yellow sky and unbreathable air.
I just posted the facts, as I know them. If you, jomoco, or anyone can post up an accident profile involving an industrial chipper manufactured in the last ten years that doesn't involve operator error, defeated or broken safeties, lack of training or PPE then I'll change my position.
RedlineIt
Being an OHSA employee safety rep meant about eight hours a month of desk time, attending an annual conference, and the chance to occasionally meet with manufacturers/distributors.
The rest of the time it was climb, cut, drag, chip in Etobicoke, Mississauga, Brampton, Oakville. 34c, 99% humidity, I know all about it. I left that godforsaken, gridlocked, sprawling wasteland when I tired of it's yellow sky and unbreathable air.
I just posted the facts, as I know them. If you, jomoco, or anyone can post up an accident profile involving an industrial chipper manufactured in the last ten years that doesn't involve operator error, defeated or broken safeties, lack of training or PPE then I'll change my position.
RedlineIt
Job Corps Tree
ArboristSite Operative
Chipper Safety
My Partner (co instructor) and I find ourselves every Day Training Kids(from 16 to 24 years) to be aware of Chipper Safety, Chain Saw Safety . on & above the ground. All I can is Training, Training and last TRAINING.
We can't make this life in trees we haven chosen Fool Proof. one Fool stands on the loading Table and get his boot caught in the rollers, puts his hands in too far or is just to Stoned to be safe.
The more we make the our tools Safer the less people will Fear them. Like Chain Saw you should Fear what the can do in a Hart Beat . If you do not do all that you can to use it safely it will mess you up or flat Kill you. I like a lot of you have lost Hard Hats Tee Shirts and far to many Gloves( on Cold Days) to the Whipper Chippers. Now we have Chippers that can take 10 times as much wood and one can stop the Rollers & and back them up. We should not be less careful but be just as careful as we always have.
Cars have Airbags ,Full belts far better Brakes, Tires and if you are not careful you will still Die in a crash.
Safety Training is all the time nonstop everyday all the time and than Watch out if you are not paying close Attention it may still get you. I don't try to make my students Afraid of tree work but to Respect it for what it is VERY Dangerous
My Partner (co instructor) and I find ourselves every Day Training Kids(from 16 to 24 years) to be aware of Chipper Safety, Chain Saw Safety . on & above the ground. All I can is Training, Training and last TRAINING.
We can't make this life in trees we haven chosen Fool Proof. one Fool stands on the loading Table and get his boot caught in the rollers, puts his hands in too far or is just to Stoned to be safe.
The more we make the our tools Safer the less people will Fear them. Like Chain Saw you should Fear what the can do in a Hart Beat . If you do not do all that you can to use it safely it will mess you up or flat Kill you. I like a lot of you have lost Hard Hats Tee Shirts and far to many Gloves( on Cold Days) to the Whipper Chippers. Now we have Chippers that can take 10 times as much wood and one can stop the Rollers & and back them up. We should not be less careful but be just as careful as we always have.
Cars have Airbags ,Full belts far better Brakes, Tires and if you are not careful you will still Die in a crash.
Safety Training is all the time nonstop everyday all the time and than Watch out if you are not paying close Attention it may still get you. I don't try to make my students Afraid of tree work but to Respect it for what it is VERY Dangerous
senechal
ArboristSite Operative
Good post JCT. Respect is definitely the ticket. The chipper doesn't make me uncomfortable, but the thought of a snag and ride into the rollers is enough for me to use every bit of PPE and all the tools in the mental box no matter what we're chipping. Hell yes RFID or metal detection is a good idea, because as many morons are operating chippers out there, there are an equal amount of moronic superiors. Training training training indeed. What if it's not offered?
Hi, RedlineIt
Chainbrake is a relatively new safety feature (last 20-25 years?). I strongly belive that all chainsaw accidents from before "chainbrake time" involved operator's error. I also belive that chipper safety features are not sufficient and should be improved.
Nice description of the GTA (Godforsaken Terrible Agglomerate).
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
I feed 18" vermeer that has this red bump bar, it is a right PITA and I wish it wasn't there.
You would be a fool to believe that a 40' long branch going up to a feed table 1m+ high doesn't have a fork or wont activate that bar.
Often some-one is at the side of the chipper forever pressing that stupid green button, it's about as useless as you can get and another typical band aide measure to writing tickets on your own product.
Then when you chip something really tangly try doing it on your own, you are trying to get the crap in the chipper but the azzhole keeps shutting down the feed rollers, so you have to let go of the load to go press the stupid green button on the side of the chipper .... meanwhile the brush just springs back out and it's catch22 round in circles you go with the $&^@ stupid idea.
The Vermeer boys said this when I had a whinge, "it's better than what Bandit offers". BIG DEAL, WHO GIVES A RATS AZZ what anyone else offers, I want my chit chipped no hassel.
Then I load with a Kanga occasionally, and often I bump that stupid bar, feed rollers stop and I have the same drama again, hop off the kanga, buggerize around with the crap button, hop on.
Wait till the chipper is on a hill and the tray sticks up higher, like when a customers driveway is downhill and the truck is on the footpath or road. With a more acute angle, everything sets the stupid thing off.
polexie
ArboristSite Operative
This is whats feeds our chipper. 
But no, it all depends on the guy behind it. If he uses his head and is told what he can do an cannot do it won't be a problem.
If he makes mistakes for his and others safety, he gets problems with the boss. Specialy when he makes them on purpose. He is taken of the machine and send home to overthink his sins!
The boss is a man of few words but when speaking of safety than every bonehead knows what he means.
But no, it all depends on the guy behind it. If he uses his head and is told what he can do an cannot do it won't be a problem.
If he makes mistakes for his and others safety, he gets problems with the boss. Specialy when he makes them on purpose. He is taken of the machine and send home to overthink his sins!
The boss is a man of few words but when speaking of safety than every bonehead knows what he means.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
I saw that problm with the vemeer botom reverse bar when I demoed a unit... The salesman just about suggested that it be tightenned past useful to prevent constant hastles... I believe they just added it to prevent liability, so that if an accident ever did occur and the bar was adjusted tight to disable it, then they could say that their safety system had been disabled and they could not be held liable... though a good laywer might ask why they engineered it to be adjusted to disable it.... Vedrm,eer might have aslo done it to add as a selling feature, though I see it as a liability.
I just bought a Bandit 1590 and consider the larger capacity over a 12" chipper to make it more likely that someone, even an experienced and safety oriented operator, could get sucked in... The pull cords are a plus I suppose, but not sure they would be useable in a panic or off balance situation..
One thing I think is important is using the proper gloves... I like the ugly gloves with the elastic wrists... the old style leather gloves with the wide cuffs are much more easily caught by stubs etc... it wouldn't take much to pull one off balance when the glove gets yanked....
I just bought a Bandit 1590 and consider the larger capacity over a 12" chipper to make it more likely that someone, even an experienced and safety oriented operator, could get sucked in... The pull cords are a plus I suppose, but not sure they would be useable in a panic or off balance situation..
One thing I think is important is using the proper gloves... I like the ugly gloves with the elastic wrists... the old style leather gloves with the wide cuffs are much more easily caught by stubs etc... it wouldn't take much to pull one off balance when the glove gets yanked....
RedlineIt
ArboristSite Guru
adam,
Glad you took my dissing of the GTA in stride.
If you want to compare chippers to chainsaws, I'd say the reversing bar as it has existed for years, surrounding the upper 3/4ths of the infeed area is a direct comparo to the chainbrake. Effective, rarely interferes with the work at hand, has prevented many injuries and deaths, Excellent.
The new in feed tray lip area reversing bar being discussed by Ekka, BC WetCoast and murphy4trees is comparable to the anti-kickback bar tip shroud that is found on many new homeowner chainsaws. So completely in the way that it reduces the effective use of the tool to do the work at hand. So bad that every competent operator will defeat/remove it at the earliest possible convenience. Even the salesman of both pieces of equipment with these devices hint at how to get rid of the problem, and this is detrimental to what I call "The Culture of Safety" in which training, reading and following the manuals and maintenance and respect of safety devices are cornerstones.
Jomoco's idea for chipper safety would be, like, I dunno...A ring of LEDS and receptors around the wrap handle of a chainsaw, a solenoid activated chainbrake, wiring loom and the requirement to wear mirrorized reflecting gloves, chaps, and hardhat. Alpha 115 had it right when he said it's just something else to go Fubar.
Don't get me wrong, I'd welcome the next really good idea to increase chipper safety, but these just don't seem to be it.
And finally, if you have anyone on your crew who has not fully read the chipper manual, and they go 50 - 60 pages these days, have them sit down for a read-through. I'd lay money that almost every tree crew out there breaks the manuals advice daily.
RedlineIt
jomoco
Tree Freak
The Vermeer BC 1400 model with the stupid red bar in front of the feed table is an excellent example of how lame some of these manufacturers ideas on safety devices can be.
The money spent by Vermeer on this POS safety system that every commercial tree firm that I know of hates, could have been a resounding success had they adopted Mather's RFID patent #6418004 and put it on every hand fed chipper they make.
The Mathers safety system is both economical and effective. RFID technology is one of the most highly used technologies in use today in a wide variety of industries.
Something stinks about TCIA, ISA, FACE, NIOSH and OSHA turning a blind eye to this fantastic new safety innovation being purposefully ignored by these chipper manufacturers.
It is my sincere hope that Mather's will debut his chipper safety system at one of the US tree trade shows on a whole tree chipper and embarrass every manufacturer in front of a large crowd of tree professionals as the chipper refuses to eat the RFID equipped dummy and keeps spitting it back out.
Retrofitting every hand fed chipper with this new system is going to happen eventually and if it takes a few multimillion dollar judgements against the manufacturers to make it happen, then the sooner the better in my opinion.
jomoco
The money spent by Vermeer on this POS safety system that every commercial tree firm that I know of hates, could have been a resounding success had they adopted Mather's RFID patent #6418004 and put it on every hand fed chipper they make.
The Mathers safety system is both economical and effective. RFID technology is one of the most highly used technologies in use today in a wide variety of industries.
Something stinks about TCIA, ISA, FACE, NIOSH and OSHA turning a blind eye to this fantastic new safety innovation being purposefully ignored by these chipper manufacturers.
It is my sincere hope that Mather's will debut his chipper safety system at one of the US tree trade shows on a whole tree chipper and embarrass every manufacturer in front of a large crowd of tree professionals as the chipper refuses to eat the RFID equipped dummy and keeps spitting it back out.
Retrofitting every hand fed chipper with this new system is going to happen eventually and if it takes a few multimillion dollar judgements against the manufacturers to make it happen, then the sooner the better in my opinion.
jomoco
same problem here
:jawdrop:
i cant stand that design, and i don't know what the blk switch with the orange light does neither. cant read the stupid picture explaining the blk switch. its just a load of chit. i wish Vermeer would stop covering the entire machine with covers and 10,0000 extra bolts to keep u from working on the thing.
:jawdrop:
i cant stand that design, and i don't know what the blk switch with the orange light does neither. cant read the stupid picture explaining the blk switch. its just a load of chit. i wish Vermeer would stop covering the entire machine with covers and 10,0000 extra bolts to keep u from working on the thing.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
The case in Kenosha, WI was the company owner. A younger fella who was just starting up. He borrowed a chipper, was having problems with the infeed, disconnected it then climbed up onto the feed tray to push stuff in with his feet.
I got this third hand from a person intimate with the details, who knew the chipper owner and the fellow who "bought the farm".
------
Virtually every chipper death I've read about, the victim was screaming for help. The only one that seemed to be silent was the woman in Kenny's neck of the woods where foul play was insinuated.
