Climbers Input Needed............

[kf_tree]

treeman 14 i guess you guys have a crane. by me a crane renatal is 1500 for the day. so we have to get good money for the tree to require a crane. its tough to use one in the area's i work. the guy i use needs 22 feet for the rear out riggers. so we have to close streets or take down fence's to get it down a drive way. i have to do at least $4000 a day to warrent useing a crane, and we could do #'s like that with out one. crane work is fun and a gentleman's way to do tree work. just blow off the saw dust and twigs, and they never knew you were there.

 

[treeclimber165]

Originally posted by spike_it
treeman 14 i guess you guys have a crane. by me a crane rental is 1500 for the day. .........

I've done over 100 crane jobs, can't recall ever using one for an entire day. In my area, it's a 3-4 hour minimum, $90 per hour for a 35 ton with a 90' stick (plus jib if needed). $360 will get you a LOT of work done!
I've only done a couple where we used a larger one. Had a 65 ton pluck a large live oak in the backyard, while set up in the street once.

 

[Treeman14]

No, I don't own a crane. Its more cost effective to rent one when I need it. 35 ton crane rental is $85/hr with a 3 hour minimum, that's only $255. Most of my crane jobs are about 2-3 hrs plus travel time.

Many years ago, after a tornado ripped through Tampa, we tried to rent a 35 ton to remove a large oak laying on top of a two-story apartment. The only crane available was a 110-ton, so we got it for the same rate as the 35-ton. Picked up the whole tree(8 tons) at 125' reach and layed it down in the front yard. The crane was gone in an hour, took us all day to chip it up. Hired a prentice loader to pick up the big wood. The regular rental rate on that crane would have been $275/hr with an 8 hour minimum, more than we got for the whole job. I think I paid $195 for the crane back then.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The least we can get a crane for is around $400.
But let's say we get one for $255, this Elm removal is about a $300 maybe a $400 job. If you rent a crane you still have to cut it up and chip the brush. You still have to clean up and haul the wood. All you save by using a crane is a little time and rigging, and there goes the profit.
If I asked the boss for a crane on a job like this, he'd laugh at me.

 

[kf_tree]

that would be about $950-1200 tree with the stump by me. just a warm up job.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

How much do you get Spiker? $1200 for a 2.5 hour job????

 

[treeclimber165]

Mike

That's in New York dollars (or Monopoly money). They don't have the same economic scale as the rest of us. Take whatever dollars Spike says and divide by 4.

 

[rbtree]

Great discussion, guys.

A couple things:

The vertical spar doesnt look all that strong, and that is quite a bit of swing between the two. So how about guying the two together, even a bit of pretensioning to suck things together a bit.

Mike's swinging set up should work, as spyderman refined the descriptions so eloquently!!

JPS's use of the GRCS would be the ultimate. Me, I'd possibly use my Simpson capstan winch, backed up with a progress capture arrangement. The forces here would stress the spar, so ground guying might be wise. Thanks mike for the education!!

re $300-400 for the tree, while it doesnt look real challenging, I'd figure 9 manhours plus a bit of travel and dump expense, that would be about $700-800. Rigging and setup take time, you know.

Craning: I consider myself blessed to have found ACDeucy, who will bring out his 87 foot reach, 17 ton boom for 205 minimum. All crane companies here are $120-140 per hr plus extras for a 35 tonner, 3 hr min, often 1hr travel each way, so that is 1 hr working time. Lousy deal, i'd say. I just found another outfit with 134 feet of boom in a 35 ton rig with 20 foot platfrom that will work for 120 per hr or so. not too shabby.

 

[rbtree]

And a couple more,

This job took us about 65 manhours, for three removals and a quick prune of the big cedar with five tops(plus quick loose cobra loop around them all) I seem to have trouble getting enuf $ for the big tough ones, $4000-4500 would have been nice, we got $3750. Course I lazed around a lot with the dang camera, but hey, nobody was complaining, they wuz gettin' paid. The second maple also require speedlining and craning. the third was a bit easier. Plus, this job was for a long standing very good customer, who has had two strokes and can no longer see. He used to work for Dept of Wildlife and had considerable wildlife photos published. so we have a lot in common. Plus, bald eagles hang out in a large cottonwood overlooking the bluff just above Lake Washington.

 

[rbtree]

Please don't laugh.....

 

[kf_tree]

basicly we bid at around 300-400 an hour. with running just 1 crew and myself doing most of the climbing , my best year i grossed about $485.000. but my expense's were huge. my blooklyn yellow page ad was $1900 a month plus i was in 2 other books in near by areas. i was paying about 2600 a month just for advertising. then ad in dumping costs. my 6 wheel chipper truck and tandem axle chipper was $26 to go over the bridge every day. plus the other smaller trucks. yard rental, misc repairs, pay roll. in the end i did not make that much. right now the company i work for 75 % of my time kind of has the super crew of the area. i work with another climber that is the best i've seen. plus we have some good rope men and saw runners. for the peak of the season we average 3000- 4000 a day, some times better. but his pay roll is huge. i had a score of a job in manhattan a few months back. 3 removals with stumps for 4500.00. i got an early start to beat some of the traffic and had the trees on the ground by 9:30. i picked up a 1500.00 job around the block and put that on the ground by 11:30. i then called my boss and asked whats my incentive to do the 1500. he said tell the crew he'll double their days pay if they get it all cleaned up. i then did a small 300.00 tree on the way home through brooklyn. i was still home by 3:30. it was just a score of a day. it sounds like big #'s but with the high over head it all balance's out. we still have to take the good with the bad.

 

[rbtree]

Mighty impressive, spike.

well, my expenses are pretty low, but I never get anywhere near that kind of money. However, if I were super organized and motivated, I should be able to do $400-450 k a yr with one crew, me on the job about 60 % of the time, instead of 95% now with less of a work load. My profit margin would be less than it is now, but it would still be huge compared to most companies. I don't need to do much advertising, have 0 dump fees, insurance is low, workman's comp is rock bottom.....


.but I like to ski too much....

.and hide behind that dang camera.....

 

[rbtree]

Mike,

i really like your DWT pic. a cool bonus would be that the easier upper leader is already tied, so it would be swung out next, a couple minutes after the first!!

i might just speed line 'em, the giant bight in the line could be gently pulled out with our chipper winch in a flash!! so the branches would swing up and sideways, then out and down. slam dunk... More anchor stresses would be a concern tho.

 

[treeclimber165]

I still don't see the need for complicated rigging on this tree. After all, the limb is PARTIALLY over a low-pitch, SHINGLE roof. It's not glass, it's not tile. Either rope the limbs off themselves, or hinge/drop them down to a man on the roof. Done in 5 minutes, faster than setting up all that rigging. Idunno, I just don't see the big deal.

 

[Kevin]

I`ll add my 2c now ...

Remove A
Remove B
Attack C

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

% min is compressing it a bit. Yah it is a modest sized tree, but you got to wauit for the guy on the roof to get into position for each cut...

I ma only seeing one side, but I thing 1-2 picks owuld eat theat tree out with the winch. And if you are getting real fansy and tie it allf with a spider or octopus rig there would be little adverce movement

 

[rbtree]

Sure, Brian, I'm sure most of us would have no problem with that, and I might just do it that way. No problem brushing the roof. But the speedline/winch, or DWT set up would be pretty fast, and the roof would be untouched.

If I can I like to avoid rigging, too, by making more cuts,taking smaller pieces, tossing them out, etc etc. I also like to run the rigging myself, to free up the groundies. I'll use natural crotches and stubs to provide friction/wrap points. Rarely bother with pulleys, blocks/ fig 8's for simple stuff., unless lifting is involved. We use cheap 1/2 inch line,often retired lifelines, for easy rigging, so we don't mind the wear.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Brian, What complicated rigging? You have to climb it, and you just hang a pulley with a bull line in it. That's not complicated. Then tie the end of the branch to the bull line before cutting, that's not hard. In fact, you can take much bigger branches if you use a rope, so it should go faster.
How does it look to the customer, bouncing pieces of the roof or having a man catching pieces while walking around on it. You know how soft a hot roof gets. Using a rope nothing touches the roof or foundation plantings, no dents in the lawn either.
Another concideration is with a man in the tree, and a man on the roof, you almost have to have a third man on the ground, if for no other reason, to make sure nobody walks out and gets hurt by falling limbs.
But you think it's a 5 minute job, I concede, you are a lot faster than me, like I said, it'd take me about 2.5 hours to get this on the ground, chip the brush, cut and pile the fire wood, rake up, and get out of there. Of that time, climbing is 30 to 45 minutes.
In our market, a 2 man crew is about $165 per hour, so 2.5 X 165=$412.50 + tax. There is no way to work a crane in on that price.

 

[treeclimber165]

Mike

I'm sorry if I confused you.
1) I stated that the 2 limbs over the roof would take 5 minutes. In an earlier post, I said it was about 45-60 minutes climbing total.
2) I never claimed that a crane would work on this job. I was simply replying to someone's statement about the cost of cranes. I apologize for getting off topic.
3) As for 'complicated rigging', I was referring to several suggestions concerning speedlines, multiple redirects, guy lines, multiple rigging techniques, etc. A simple 1/2" rope through a natural crotch is all I would use on this tree. It is hardly worth talking about. Anyone who can't handle a simple rigging like this probably doesn't need to be roping limbs.

Again, I apologize if I confused you.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

How ever you decide to rig the tree be SURE to use a tie in crotch that is not in a lead that you're using for rigging. If something goes wrong you don't want to go for a ride like Slim Pickens in "Dr. Strangelove."

You could rig a tip tie speed line too if needed. Tie off one end of the rigging line in the main bole of the tree. Climb out to the end of the limb and pass the rigging line through a pulley/false crotch setup. Clip off the part or parts that you want to remove. Anchor the other end of the line to the base of the tree or other secure anchor. When you cut the tips, they'll slide down the line and not dust off the roof. After cutting the tip, move the FC back and take another piece continuing until the limb is on the ground. We use the ATV for an anchor in cases like this when we have brush and small logs. By attaching a lowering line to the branch runner the limb can be controlled. By driving the ATV ahead we lower the limb in exactly the best place with the butt pointing towards the street, drop the rigging, grab with the ATV and off to the chipper. By the time the quad gets back, the climber has setup the next lower. Two people can do a job like this with a quad where traditional rigging might take two groundies.

Tom