Climbg line to remove elec line from climber

[Brock2saws]

I apologize if this has been covered before.

I was studying for the ISA TW/CC cert with an EHAP/AR program from TCIA. The video suggests 2 techniques for AR that don't seem like good ideas to me.

1. If a climber is in contact with an engergized line, use a rope/line to remove the line from the suspended climber. I can see the need for removing the climber from contact with an energized line, but I'm not sure I want to be in contact with either the line or the climber while doing so. Granted, it's a tough rescue any way you go about it.

2. Non-energized, unconscious, suspended climber. The video suggests an unsecured footlock up the tail, click into the D's with your lanyard and work the fiction hitch down. With the AR requirement at a minimum of 40 ft, that seems like a long unsecured footlock. I don't suppose it would have to be unsecured, but that's a technique endorsed by the TCIA.

Please Advise,
BAB

 

[MasterBlaster]

To the best of my knowledge, a clean, dry rope will not conduct electricity.

Dunno 'bout the footlocking thing.

 

[NeTree]

Well ya see brock, there's an example of idiots getting published.

Whether the rope is clean isn't as relative as the voltage in the line vs moisture content in the rope. Would YOU take the gamble?

Oh, and sorry to say it, but unless you can get up to the climber and start CPR at warp speed, he's already dead.

40 ft unsecured footlock- by a person obviously in a rush, under stress, in an excited state? Recipe for same person to take a 40' sh!tter and be the next man down.

 

[mmayo]

Hey there Brock, I have seen the same video, unfortunately its a bit outdated. I hope new videos, new techniques are in the works. A clean dry rope should not conduct electricity but you never can be sure ditto on what net tree said about the foot lock. Unfortunately if a climber is in contact with electricity there's a good chance the person's already dead. Stay safe and be smart!

 

[John Stewart]

Originally posted by netree
Well ya see brock, there's an example of idiots getting published.

Whether the rope is clean isn't as relative as the voltage in the line vs moisture content in the rope. Would YOU take the gamble?

Oh, and sorry to say it, but unless you can get up to the climber and start CPR at warp speed, he's already dead.

40 ft unsecured footlock- by a person obviously in a rush, under stress, in an excited state? Recipe for same person to take a 40' sh!tter and be the next man down.

If you use a polypropyln rope you would be pretty safe if it is dry!
You have 4 minutes to get CPR going or brain damage will start to occure
Also if you had called for a hold off the hydro company would not try to re-engage power if contact is made and the line would be dead!
If you did not call the line will be re-engage three times before they shut it down to check it out!
So with all that said I would probably do those things but I don't think I would do the foot lock!
To each his own it is a risk no matter what!
Take care
John

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

From:Electrical Power Thread in Injuries and Fatalities Forum

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap :
"A clean, dry rope is not conductive?".<-You'll never get a rope manufacturer to vouch for that!! Over the years of helping at EHAP training I've asked every journeyman lineman if he would ever use a rope or throwline to move a wire. They have all looked at me with "What-are-you-stupid?" eyes. None of them would ever do it so I won't either. This is the best Suspension Trauma (a companion risk to electrical shock) article that I've ever read. This one gives some ideas for rescuer and patient to consider. An arbo buddy who does tower work sent this to me: http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarc...ety-Harness-Kill-You~20040119.htm -Tom

 

[arboromega]

the ehap i went through said to keep and unused clean dry rope on the truck for use to pull a line away. however, unless it is a housedrop, lineare rarely singular and if you cross mutiple line you to will be a victim. the first rule of rescue is survey the scene and never create a second victim. if you cant move that line safely you may not want to try it. i would lean toward the jameson non conductive lineman poles over tossing a rope myself.
with netree i concur, i wouldnt ascend an injured climbers rope. put your spikes on and run up that tree on your own rope. my take anyway. while this is am important issue for us to discuss and to train for i sure hope it never happens.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

If rope is questionable for carrying charge; should you spike into the cambium/watery layer of tree that said rope is connected to?

 

[JJackson]

IF you are working around a high voltage line I would get to know the name of the circuit/feeder and possibly the number for the source side device (fuse etc.) And have a number for power companys center of command for the remote switches. I am sure most power companies would provide you with the feeder name if you give them a little time to look it up. sometimes an address is not the fastest way to do things expecially when you partrner is getting fried by the line. Most of the time the system I use to find owners based on address alone does not work, usually the meter number helps.

As far a a clean dry rope over the line I heard it only really good for single phase lines. I am not sure though as I am not a climber and mostly do work planning.

 

[NeTree]

let's be honest... how many guys do you know that carry around a rope that's both clean AND dry, eh? (Remember, ropes will wick moisture; the higher the humidity, the more moisture they'll wick up).

 

[MasterBlaster]

Ha. That's a fact.

 

[begleytree]

I was once asked the same question by our safety director.
Knowing that any rope will wick moisture, and thereby conduct
the only real answer I could give was cut the pole over. Talking to the power co and safety dir, they agreed that that was one way to safely cut the power.

Also remember that if the tree is energized, no spikes, AND that if the tree is hot, so are the roots you are walking on. I was taught to shuffle your feet as you walk where you would believe the tree to have roots. Didn't make sense until I saw copper gnd rods cut off a little short fail to read continuity to ground, although they were 5-7 ft deep.

If it would take 4 minutes or more to effect rescue, hard as it would be, don't bother. It wouldn't be a rescue, it would be a body recovery. No sense in risking your life for a body recovery. Thats what rescue services are for.
Hard questions if you are on the scene trying to rescue. -Ralph

 

[okietreedude1]

NE said it best: Clean dry rope in a truck??? HA! Taint likely.

Ive too seen those videos and wouldnt do it. The best suggestion i saw here was using the Jameson poles. The foam core poles are bunch tested to 100kv. Thats pretty high! Ive used the hollow core for years and seen them touch 7.5kv w/ NO affect to the user. I think I too would use them to remove the climber from the hazard and then if possible, F the yard and drive in a bucket if one were available.

Its my opinion every line crew should have a completely separate bag of gear out and available for this reason. However, it would have to be inspected regularly for theft (crew taking out pieces for themselves). This too would be left sitting in the yard ready for use. I dont see this happening. Most companies I see dont even have spare handsaw blades let alone a complete second kit of climbing gear. Even if it were there, how many 'groundies' would know how to use it??? Mine wouldnt.

About using spikes, as long as the tree was no longer energized, spike away. If thats the fastest way, go for it.

As for AR, there are soooooo many different ways to perform it, the tcia would go nuts trying to show them all. I think they are just showing some 'ideas' to give the beginner an avenue to start.

Like has already been said, stay calm and dont become a second victim. If your dealing w/ power, chances are he's dead anyway.

I know there has been talk of redoing the AR event at TCC. Many people are getting hurt practicing. In fact, ive heard more people get hurt practicing AR than are rescued.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by begleytree
I AND that if the tree is hot, so are the roots you are walking on. I was taught to shuffle your feet as you walk where you would believe the tree to have

s.

Thanks for bringing that up- I have been taught the same.

Originally posted by begleytree

If it would take 4 minutes or more to effect rescue, hard as it would be, don't bother. It wouldn't be a rescue, it would be a body recovery. No sense in risking your life for a body recovery. Thats what rescue services are for.
Hard questions if you are on the scene trying to rescue. -Ralph

Which is where my remark about "heat of the moment" comes into play. Until you're actually IN the situation, it's hard to gauge how you would react. It takes training to make "thinking" in an emergency the first thing you do instead of the last.

In reality, they're probaby dead within a few seconds. it's not just the heart stoppage that's a problem. There's the severe cardiac tissue damage etc. etc. etc. that electrical burns bring about to consider.

Not to say I wouldn't ever TRY to save someone I was working with, but simply the benefit to them and myself would have to outweigh the risks associated.

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by okietreedude1
NE said it best: Clean dry rope in a truck??? HA! Taint likely.

But hey, you're gonna fix that for me, ain't ya Dave?

 

[okietreedude1]

NOPE! I dunked it in the fish tank to clean off the garage grease b4 i boxed it up


(For those unaware---THIS IS A JOKE! I dont sell dirty, wet stuff)

Im getting you started, its up to you to put it in the truck.

 

[NeTree]

C'mon Dave... you know darn well that my delieveries from you make the guys act like it's Christmas morning. The stuff gets opened up and tried out ten seconds after the UPS guy pulls up.

 

[OutOnaLimb]

Mayo has a good point, the first step in assesing an ariel rescue is to determine whether or not it is safe for you to make the ascent. Unsecured foot lock to an unconcious climber who is in contact with a live lead sounds a little risky. Maybe useing an ascender to climb his tail. A dry line has almost zero conductive properties. If you can get a rope around the line and pull it away from the area of conscern that would be the second step in performing this rescue.

Kenn

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by netree
C'mon Dave... you know darn well that my delieveries from you make the guys act like it's Christmas morning. The stuff gets opened up and tried out ten seconds after the UPS guy pulls up.

i always call UPS 'Santa Claus'; especially when bringing tree toys!

 

[NeTree]

True to form... stuff got here today, the "kids" tore into the box like fatties at a pizza hut!