Climbg line to remove elec line from climber

[xander9727]

Tomorrow I'm completing the Line Clearance Arborist Certification from ACRT. We did the bucket truck aerial rescue and the work climb today. The main focus is working safely around electrical wires (go figure). They teach that if the tree, truck, climber is energized you should use a dedicated clean, dry, rope to pull the wire from the climber/tree or the climber from the wire. If possible you can use a fiberglass (electrically insulated) pole if the wire/climber is close enough. The didn't teach climbing the injured climbers line unsecured. They did however teach using spikes unsecured to get to the climber (on a tree that IS NOT energized). So far it has been good training. Tomorrow we need to identify 25 trees and perform the climbing aerial rescue and take the written portion of the test. I took the class to allow me to bid on municipal work and to get the aerial rescue cert so I can take the Certified Tree Worker test on Nov. 5.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

GUYS!!! I'm taking the caps off but listen up, I'M SHOUTING!!!

Stop this talk about "clean, dry ropes"!!!

They don't exist except in someone's imagination.

First, that NAA video was made in 1989!!! Has anything changed since then? Lots...

Here are some questions to ask. If you get a satisfactory answer, go ahead and use this fabled "clean, dry rope"

Talk with a journeyman lineman. Not an electrician. These are the guys who build and maintain the system. I've asked MANY over the ten plus years that I've been involved in EHAP training. When I've asked any of them if that is a good idea to break contact. To a MAN, they look at me like I started to grow another head on my shoulder. They all think it is foolish, stupid and very risky. Not to be done!

Ask any rope manufacturer if they would package you a "clean, dry rope" for you to use as a "rescue rope." Get them to put their name and reputation that the rope can be used to break contact. I'll bet dollars to donuts that no rope manufacturer will take on that liability.

Ask any of the instructors if they would show you THE rope to use to move the charged line. Then, have them toss if over the line to show that this is a valid procedure.

The last few times that I've taught the EHAP program I use the AR video is a novel way. Tim Walsh shared this tip with me. Have everyone watch the video to make a list of the number of practices that are questionable. There are about ten easy ones. If you watch close, or as many times as I have, you'll pick up about another five or six. They're pretty subtle.

The video is great in one regard though. You get to see Don Blair with hair

There is a rope manufacturer that has a rope that is dielectric. I've talked with the rep about the rope. He's reluctant to promote the rope for this use. The specs on the rope are impressive but they aren't going to open themselves up to the liability.

Promoting this procedure is reckless of anyone. I truly believe that in the terrible case of a rescuer using this and getting killed, an easy case could be made against the teacher that they were negligent.

sure, the tree industry says it's OK. BUT, what is our claimed area of expertise. Trees or electricity? We get pretty protective of the trees when the electricians come near them. Shouldn't we respect their skills and knowledge and stay away from their domain?

OK, I'm done for now. I'll quiet down. I want to hear the answers to my questions. I've put my name on my opinion. Are any of the instructors willing to come here and do the same?

Tom

PS For what it's worth, I've contracted with TCIA to do EHAP trainings. Before we made the agreement I spent time talking about my beliefs. They don't have any problems.

 

[Brock2saws]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
[PS For what it's worth, I've contracted with TCIA to do EHAP trainings. Before we made the agreement I spent time talking about my beliefs. They don't have any problems. [/B]

I agree with you Tom, I think you're spot on. I read your comments about not using a rope to remove an energized line from a climber before. Maybe at TB, but somewhere. It's one reason why I started this thread.


I really like the idea about using the TCIA video as a learning tool to teach your students to think critically about electrical hazard recognition. But that is not what TCIA advertises their video to be, they promote it as a "how to."

Admittedly, the video has more useful content than dangerous, but 1 mistake can kill you. If this program is endorsing/teaching/suggesting inappropriate practices, it needs to be changed/updated and not just disclaimed.

Here's my beef--ISA creates a new certification, CTW. Part of this is EHAP/AR training as a prerequisite. ISA implicitly endorses the content of the TCIA program by naming specifically "NAA EHAP" training as one of (but the only specifically named) prerequisite in thier CTW application.

TCIA promotes this video as a part of an EHAP/AR program and certifies the people who meet the minimum thresholds of mastering the content as qualified to recognize electrical hazards and conduct an aerial rescue. Yet, part of thier program endorses using a rope to remove an energized line from a climber and an usecured footlock to rescue a disabled climber.

Is something better than nothing here? Or, are we to simply accept that our's is a dangerous business and we work at our own risk. I can accept that at some level, but what I don't care for is being asked to take safety training and have the suggested training materials misinform me about what is safest. It's irresponsible.

It's easy to criticize in hindsight, and in 1989 I'm sure this was a step in the right direction. But it's time to update that program. If ISA is going to require us to engage in continuing education, why suggest we use outdated information?

Let me tie on my figure 8 and descend from my soapbox now (using a prussik backup of course).

BAB

 

[Ross Turner]

Over here in the UK you are told not to attempt to rescue anyone who is caught on any Hv line but to inform control so they can switch the circuit out.
On Lv you can used insulated rods to try to clear the climber from the lines or if possible pull the fuse if you have be trained to do so.
Everything comes down to the old saying not to become a casualty yourself.

 

[glens]

Uh, how about a 16 oz. throwbag hauling 20' of 1/4" wire rope, draped nicely across the wires on the upstream side of the individual?

 

[Ross Turner]

We dont carry 20` of wire rope around with us & also what happens if you dont hit both phases & only catch 1 with the wire still touching earth would do you do?

 

[MasterBlaster]

JUMP!

 

[Ross Turner]

Jump ,but you still have to touch the ground.Thus you are still putting yourself & others at risk.
We are told to bunny hop out of the area which has become live.

 

[xander9727]

Originally posted by glens
Uh, how about a 16 oz. throwbag hauling 20' of 1/4" wire rope, draped nicely across the wires on the upstream side of the individual?

A phase to phase ground should trip the fuse as long as it doesn't have an auto recloser. This would be extremely dangerous and not a good idea. I would rather try a 1/4" polypropylene rope that has a 16oz throw bag and is a dedicated line puller. Unless you work for a line clearance company you shouldn't be around wires everyday. If your not certified to do line clearance you shouldn't do it!

 

[xander9727]

Originally posted by Ross Turner
Jump ,but you still have to touch the ground.Thus you are still putting yourself & others at risk.
We are told to bunny hop out of the area which has become live.

If you are part of a phase to phase ground, you will be unhappy, on the ground or not.

 

[glens]

I see a rather funny use of the word "ground" there :<tt></tt>)&nbsp; Perhaps when contemplating a short circuit to either another phase or to ground, the word "short" would be more suitable.

The point I was merely trying to get across was that the utility's attention could be got quicker than via telephone, and quite possibly remove the immediate threat immediately.&nbsp; Heck, I'd be scared to grab a rope 'round a "high tension" power (transmission, or even a distribution) line in any situation where I couldn't see an open upstream fuse/switch/breaker!

Glen

 

[xander9727]

If you have to work around wires call the utility company and have them put insulators on them. At least you'll have less of a chance of spontaneous combustion.

 

[UNBforester]

I would throw a rope over the lines if I really had to but only a clean dry polypropelene 1/2" rope and while I was wearing my class 2 rubber gloves (up to 20kv). I believe that all utilities should issue rubber gloves just for times like these.
As for footlocking up the tail of someones climbing line, I would be very reluctant to do so. If that line had a good charge go through it there is the possibility the core is compromised without any visible damage.

Too many scenarios, not enough training.

 

[topnotchtree]

Been a while since I have posted, but here goes. After 12 years of line clearance I would not hesitate to use a rope to break contact of a victim. Although there are just too many variables to answer such a question correctly. I think most importantly would be knowing what the line voltage was. Most high power lines 13kv and higher have built in switches that should kill the power when a problem is detected. As said before these switches will kick back on 3 times (usually) before they blow themselves out completely. Whether they work is a variable. Does the wire have any weathercoating on it?, or is it bare? Is it wet weather? Where I work, we have safety meetings regurally on this type of stuff. The decision to try to rescue or not, and how to rescue, will come as the situation arises. We are taught to lower the victim with their own climbing line if possible. Our company policy states we must have a locking snap tied to climbing line with a bowline knot, leaving a tail long enough to tie your friction knot, and a figure 8 knot in the tail a few inches from the bowline. We are taught to secure the victims climbing line at the ground, or have a helper hold it, and cut the victims climbing line between the figure 8 knot and the friction hitch. This allows someone on the ground to lower victim like a hunk of wood. Lots of variables involved but you get the picture.(hopefully) ok, I am tired of typing now, and I am sure confused some with my explanations. Hope it helps.

 

[xander9727]

SOP for line clearance. Sounds correct to me.