Mr_Brushcutter
ArboristSite Operative
The tree climbers compainion can somebody give me the authors and an ISBN number please so i can go and order it at the book shop.
Climbing, How to Learn???
- Thread starter J_Ashley
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kf_tree
Addicted to ArboristSite
rbtree said:
rb
you got the pic's upside down man........
nice shotz
pantheraba
ArboristSite Operative
Mr_Brushcutter said:
Check at Sherrill's...this book has an incredible amount of info:
http://www.wtsherrill.com/iwwidb.pvx?;multi_item_submit
Tree Climbers Companion/2nd Edition / Jeff Jepson
$ 14.00
"This compact field reference and training manual for tree climbers is the ideal partner for all tree workers. "
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Tell us when the info gets to be too much.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
Go to the articles page here if you'd like to read my article on SRT. There are many threads on SRT on AS and TB.
http://tinyurl.com/axwso
TH,
That helmet is made from a new version of Kevlar. It's the soft unwoven fiber
I think that a given climber would be faster in a tree using SRT than DdRT. Compare the climber not the system.
When I was making the transition off of pruning on spikes, my Evil Tom days...long ago in a galaxy far, far away...I took rock climbing lessons from a friend. the movement classes really helped me to become a better tree climber. There are many moves that could be used in trees.
http://tinyurl.com/axwso
TH,
That helmet is made from a new version of Kevlar. It's the soft unwoven fiber
I think that a given climber would be faster in a tree using SRT than DdRT. Compare the climber not the system.
When I was making the transition off of pruning on spikes, my Evil Tom days...long ago in a galaxy far, far away...I took rock climbing lessons from a friend. the movement classes really helped me to become a better tree climber. There are many moves that could be used in trees.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
What Tom says is true, not about the unwoven Kevlar helmet..... ya know, I had evil days, long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. I became an outcast from the planet Nohelmetron. I was trying to pitch the benefits of using helmets. I was laughed at, shunned and ousted not only from the planet, but from their entire solar system. How I got to indianapolis, I'm still not sure.
But I am a hemeted dude these days.
Tom says faster on SRT, and I agree, and I'll share why.
Of the three methods, DdRT DbRT and SRT, the latter two are identical except for the number of lines in front of your face. You handle friction on the two parallel lines as if they were one, which makes transitioning between the latter two exceedingly easy. Both are 1:1 climbing. You control 100% of the friction somewhere between face-level and saddle level.
DdRT, the style that 99.999% of all treeguys use is a 2:1 system where the trees limb, crotch or friction saver acts as a pulley. You pull two feet of rope downward, you go up one foot. I call this a mechanical disadvantage; you have to put twice the motion in ascending DdRT to get the same distance with the same motion climbing DbRT or SRT. Also, because the limb or crotch is a 'pulley', there is friction there working for or against you. However, it is variable friction, different on every tree, different between wet and dry, different between 11 mm and 13 mm ropes. This variable friction changes depending on diameter of the limb or crotch, the type of bark and the coating on your rope.
Between the friction up there, and your friction hitch, that's how you control friction. Since DdRT is a 2:1 system, one leg of the system takes half your weight, the other leg takes the other half. One leg goes down, the other leg goes up. You apply your friction hitch to the leg going down, footlocking that line, advancing yourself. Every pull you're expending double motion for single distance and working against the friction up in the crotch. This friction takes up some of your weight also, if we assume 20% overall, then the friction hitch is only responsible for 40% of your weight. You also have to push the friction hitch along which, if clinched tight, if there is any friction at all (resistance) then as you push it up, it pushes you down (physics, man. Every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) and you add to all that friction the force of gravity.
DdRT when looked at this way becomes not such a good deal, from the standpoint of energy, and motion. There's a whole lot more friction and movement happening than needs to be happening.
But I am a hemeted dude these days.
Tom says faster on SRT, and I agree, and I'll share why.
Of the three methods, DdRT DbRT and SRT, the latter two are identical except for the number of lines in front of your face. You handle friction on the two parallel lines as if they were one, which makes transitioning between the latter two exceedingly easy. Both are 1:1 climbing. You control 100% of the friction somewhere between face-level and saddle level.
DdRT, the style that 99.999% of all treeguys use is a 2:1 system where the trees limb, crotch or friction saver acts as a pulley. You pull two feet of rope downward, you go up one foot. I call this a mechanical disadvantage; you have to put twice the motion in ascending DdRT to get the same distance with the same motion climbing DbRT or SRT. Also, because the limb or crotch is a 'pulley', there is friction there working for or against you. However, it is variable friction, different on every tree, different between wet and dry, different between 11 mm and 13 mm ropes. This variable friction changes depending on diameter of the limb or crotch, the type of bark and the coating on your rope.
Between the friction up there, and your friction hitch, that's how you control friction. Since DdRT is a 2:1 system, one leg of the system takes half your weight, the other leg takes the other half. One leg goes down, the other leg goes up. You apply your friction hitch to the leg going down, footlocking that line, advancing yourself. Every pull you're expending double motion for single distance and working against the friction up in the crotch. This friction takes up some of your weight also, if we assume 20% overall, then the friction hitch is only responsible for 40% of your weight. You also have to push the friction hitch along which, if clinched tight, if there is any friction at all (resistance) then as you push it up, it pushes you down (physics, man. Every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) and you add to all that friction the force of gravity.
DdRT when looked at this way becomes not such a good deal, from the standpoint of energy, and motion. There's a whole lot more friction and movement happening than needs to be happening.
Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
SRT and DbRT, on the other hand, these are 1:1 systems . If one foot of rope goes down past you, you have ascended up one foot. Generally speaking, you clip on an ascender, which is essentially frictionless and very lightweight and up you go. Hence, faster. You've taken the unknown friction variable (rope/crotch) out of the equation, as well as the 2:1 motion loss. That's a major speed advantage, just there in those two things alone. But there's more.
In SRT/DbRT you control 100% of the friction on the rope(s) right in front of you, so there's a major difference and something to get used to. There is no friction at the crotch since there is no rope movement over the crotch. Less rope wear, no need for a friction saver. Control can be more precise since 100% of the control is in front of your belly, all you do is master your ability to control 100% of the friction, 100% of the time and enjoy the 1:1 motion advantage. Welcome to new-school climbing.
SRT is the same technique as search and rescue, rock climbing, tower climbing, fire and emergengy, caving and search and rescue. DbRT, double the rope, double the fun. That's why they make dual ascenders. It's SRT in all aspects once you're on rope, except SRT has one end of the rope anchored, where on DbRT, both ends are free-hanging and on the ground.
Does this sort out the differences?
Seems like a lot to digest, but that's the Cliff Notes version of Tree Climbing Methods, chapter one. You WILL be qizzed on this.
In SRT/DbRT you control 100% of the friction on the rope(s) right in front of you, so there's a major difference and something to get used to. There is no friction at the crotch since there is no rope movement over the crotch. Less rope wear, no need for a friction saver. Control can be more precise since 100% of the control is in front of your belly, all you do is master your ability to control 100% of the friction, 100% of the time and enjoy the 1:1 motion advantage. Welcome to new-school climbing.
SRT is the same technique as search and rescue, rock climbing, tower climbing, fire and emergengy, caving and search and rescue. DbRT, double the rope, double the fun. That's why they make dual ascenders. It's SRT in all aspects once you're on rope, except SRT has one end of the rope anchored, where on DbRT, both ends are free-hanging and on the ground.
Does this sort out the differences?
Seems like a lot to digest, but that's the Cliff Notes version of Tree Climbing Methods, chapter one. You WILL be qizzed on this.
Last edited:
CoreyTMorine
User Formerly known as BlueSpruce
en courage ment
Maybe he will become discouraged; if that is the case then perhaps he isn’t meant to climb trees for a living. These young guys see only the brightness; the respect that a good climber gets from his or her peers, the money that it is possible to make, the exciting interesting days climbing about in ancient living creatures. And so, it is with this mind-set that they go forth into the business of working in trees.
The reality of tree work is more in depth. Climbing and cutting trees for money is brutal, dangerous work. Even on a good day there can be bumps and bruises and scrapes and blood. A bad day ends in the hospital. Before spending a bunch of cash and getting all excited about a brilliant future these guys need to understand what it is they are getting into.
My sister was home a few years back with her kids and boyfriend. He ended up working a few days with me to help pay for the trip. Kid was a terrific worker, paid attention, stayed out of the way when he didn’t understand what needed to be done, was right there moving brush when he knew it was “safe” to do so. I mentioned that if they wanted to move up this way I could use some more help. “How long does it take to learn how to climb?” he asks. I was a little shocked by his query, but I told him what Rory told me, “3 to 5 years and that only after spending a year or two on the ground. That’s just the basics, simple pruning, and the straight forward removals.”
Well, I guess he didn’t believe me. He went back to North Carolina, googled “tree climb” and ordered a bunch of gear from Sherrill. The goods arrive and so he puts his saddle on and proceeds to climb 35’ into an oak tree living in the back yard. He gets to the top and ties in, looks around and thinks ‘this isn’t so hard.’ Then the limb breaks and he falls the 35’ to terra firma, breaking his hip in 3 places, dislocating a shoulder, and suffering some other injuries.
I cried when I heard the story. Blinking cursor, and brain freeze. I’m going to make some breakfast… I don’t believe that an emotional response makes a thing more or less true / relevant, maybe they are designed to make us pay attention.
Concerning gear; comfort, ease of operation, safety; these are the qualities that sell, and so the ads paint pictures that make this seem to be the case. For the most part it is, the manufacturers have come a long way in all of those areas. What they obscure is the fundamental truth about our trade, that the work itself is the antithesis of comfort, safety, and ease.
In starting with the bare minimum of tools, all of the glossy photo’s, and the pretty, soft, happily colored, synthetics; the encouraging words and supportive faces, all of the “fluff” disappears. What’s left is a single man and a tree, the man will learn how to interact with the tree. He will become more like the creature he has chosen to climb in; hard, slow to take notice of things that don’t matter, imbued with an awful will to live and understanding of the mind-set that makes us likely to live through adversity.
If a prospective climber does not reach that point, if he becomes discouraged, then maybe it is best if he stays on the ground, or climbs trees for fun on the weekends. But to throw a fella into a phone booth with a bunch of kit and have him come out all dressed like superman… ‘Maybe he thinks heeee’s JOHHN WAAYNE.’
Lots of people making money sending these kids into trees to do “work”, selling the idea that trees need to be worked on. Lots of people making money selling the kids gear to go out and do the work. Also many people making money “teaching” kids how to climb trees. Lots of money. Well heck, its fun climbing trees and its fun making money, why not combine the two.
I try not to encourage people to do tree work. If it is their calling, then no encouragement is necessary; they will become aware of the trade in their own way and time. If a person commits himself to the long, arduous process of becoming a tree man, well, then it becomes their business. They will be able to make a good living for themselves. If a person also wants to learn about marketing and sales and inc. they can make a good pile of money.
But were I to send a noob into the canopy with a thousand dollars worth of false security and a zubat, well, I would fear for my karma. lol
Does that qualify as encouragement or discouragement?
Maybe he will become discouraged; if that is the case then perhaps he isn’t meant to climb trees for a living. These young guys see only the brightness; the respect that a good climber gets from his or her peers, the money that it is possible to make, the exciting interesting days climbing about in ancient living creatures. And so, it is with this mind-set that they go forth into the business of working in trees.
The reality of tree work is more in depth. Climbing and cutting trees for money is brutal, dangerous work. Even on a good day there can be bumps and bruises and scrapes and blood. A bad day ends in the hospital. Before spending a bunch of cash and getting all excited about a brilliant future these guys need to understand what it is they are getting into.
My sister was home a few years back with her kids and boyfriend. He ended up working a few days with me to help pay for the trip. Kid was a terrific worker, paid attention, stayed out of the way when he didn’t understand what needed to be done, was right there moving brush when he knew it was “safe” to do so. I mentioned that if they wanted to move up this way I could use some more help. “How long does it take to learn how to climb?” he asks. I was a little shocked by his query, but I told him what Rory told me, “3 to 5 years and that only after spending a year or two on the ground. That’s just the basics, simple pruning, and the straight forward removals.”
Well, I guess he didn’t believe me. He went back to North Carolina, googled “tree climb” and ordered a bunch of gear from Sherrill. The goods arrive and so he puts his saddle on and proceeds to climb 35’ into an oak tree living in the back yard. He gets to the top and ties in, looks around and thinks ‘this isn’t so hard.’ Then the limb breaks and he falls the 35’ to terra firma, breaking his hip in 3 places, dislocating a shoulder, and suffering some other injuries.
I cried when I heard the story. Blinking cursor, and brain freeze. I’m going to make some breakfast… I don’t believe that an emotional response makes a thing more or less true / relevant, maybe they are designed to make us pay attention.
Concerning gear; comfort, ease of operation, safety; these are the qualities that sell, and so the ads paint pictures that make this seem to be the case. For the most part it is, the manufacturers have come a long way in all of those areas. What they obscure is the fundamental truth about our trade, that the work itself is the antithesis of comfort, safety, and ease.
In starting with the bare minimum of tools, all of the glossy photo’s, and the pretty, soft, happily colored, synthetics; the encouraging words and supportive faces, all of the “fluff” disappears. What’s left is a single man and a tree, the man will learn how to interact with the tree. He will become more like the creature he has chosen to climb in; hard, slow to take notice of things that don’t matter, imbued with an awful will to live and understanding of the mind-set that makes us likely to live through adversity.
If a prospective climber does not reach that point, if he becomes discouraged, then maybe it is best if he stays on the ground, or climbs trees for fun on the weekends. But to throw a fella into a phone booth with a bunch of kit and have him come out all dressed like superman… ‘Maybe he thinks heeee’s JOHHN WAAYNE.’
Lots of people making money sending these kids into trees to do “work”, selling the idea that trees need to be worked on. Lots of people making money selling the kids gear to go out and do the work. Also many people making money “teaching” kids how to climb trees. Lots of money. Well heck, its fun climbing trees and its fun making money, why not combine the two.
I try not to encourage people to do tree work. If it is their calling, then no encouragement is necessary; they will become aware of the trade in their own way and time. If a person commits himself to the long, arduous process of becoming a tree man, well, then it becomes their business. They will be able to make a good living for themselves. If a person also wants to learn about marketing and sales and inc. they can make a good pile of money.
But were I to send a noob into the canopy with a thousand dollars worth of false security and a zubat, well, I would fear for my karma. lol
Does that qualify as encouragement or discouragement?
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Tree Machine
Addicted to ArboristSite
Just the rock-solid truth of the matter, Corey. Thanks.
PRUNER 1
ArboristSite Operative
a rant, but a worthy one and oh so true!!!!
J_Ashley
ArboristSite Operative
Corey that sounds like a fair warning. I guess that is what I need most right now- to be shown the truth about tree climbing and the tree buisness. I have a short background as a firewood cutter and small engine mechanic, nothing more. The concept of tree care and tree climbing does interest me, but I realize there's a lot I don't know; things I won't possibly see without being in the buisness. Like I said, any help/advice is welcome. Any.
Justin
Justin
Bodean
ArboristSite Member
Get a small tree. Get some gear ( northwest floating D ) a rope, and a snap. Learn a knot, climb up and tie-in , then come back down slow. Get a friend to show you new neat stuff like all the catalog stuff. It's an evolution of thoughts and experiences rolled into one. An uncanny sense of Danger is very rewarding to develop as well.
Learn what the word "headache" means.
Climbing is crazy in a rain storm, or lightning, or just a beautiful sunny day on top of a hill looking down at the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay.
Climb for fun. Climbing for money brings risky edgey cuts. My personal favorite is the irate ego maniac boss that screams.
I could talk about climbing all day long.
Bodean
Learn what the word "headache" means.
Climbing is crazy in a rain storm, or lightning, or just a beautiful sunny day on top of a hill looking down at the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay.
Climb for fun. Climbing for money brings risky edgey cuts. My personal favorite is the irate ego maniac boss that screams.
I could talk about climbing all day long.
Bodean
Bodean
ArboristSite Member
Reading that from above makes sense I loved It. The tree should call you up in it. Seriously spending time on the ground is so important. I spent 3 years on the ground before I started climbing. Need to know yer knots, Saws, ropes, terminology, rythum, develop a sense of impending doom. Crap here you got to know spanish. I am red haired honky white and speak guatemalan as well as them. You see that's the major ground force here,
Off the topic but.........
Here the tree business owner or bidder shows up and shines the homeowner then a couple of days later this truck shows up with like 5 non english speaking folks running around with loppers. Latin lopper disease. The bidder or owner isn't there to communicate with the crew and the homeowner is unable to control or communicate with the "tree" crew. The homeowner watches in horror as the future unfolds. And the work well seems alittle sub-par. I'll post some pictures I take driving around. Topped Palms. Topped eucalyptus. "oh the tree will come right back it just stepped out for a moment". Anyway maybe no one sees the humor.
Back on topic............
Climbing trees is the unknown. Failure. Rope fails. Accidently cut yer tie-in. Cut your thigh drop starting a 372 hanging in the tree. Better yet your knot burns out because you didn't snug it up and you fly. Your spurs slip out of the wood at a bad point in time and your un-prepared. Your ground guy cant let the thing run past you and smacks you with false crotch wood in the knees. Tons of fun. I love it. Big swings. Big trees. Someone telling me that I cant do it. only pushes my head that much harder into the stone.
Bodean
Off the topic but.........
Here the tree business owner or bidder shows up and shines the homeowner then a couple of days later this truck shows up with like 5 non english speaking folks running around with loppers. Latin lopper disease. The bidder or owner isn't there to communicate with the crew and the homeowner is unable to control or communicate with the "tree" crew. The homeowner watches in horror as the future unfolds. And the work well seems alittle sub-par. I'll post some pictures I take driving around. Topped Palms. Topped eucalyptus. "oh the tree will come right back it just stepped out for a moment". Anyway maybe no one sees the humor.
Back on topic............
Climbing trees is the unknown. Failure. Rope fails. Accidently cut yer tie-in. Cut your thigh drop starting a 372 hanging in the tree. Better yet your knot burns out because you didn't snug it up and you fly. Your spurs slip out of the wood at a bad point in time and your un-prepared. Your ground guy cant let the thing run past you and smacks you with false crotch wood in the knees. Tons of fun. I love it. Big swings. Big trees. Someone telling me that I cant do it. only pushes my head that much harder into the stone.
Bodean
