Command/reply protocol

[Tom Dunlap]

I'm going to cross post this to the other pages, so have patience...

This is a spin off from "Food for Thought"

How far should groundies stand from the tree? That depends. If twigs are coming out, close, if logs are bombing, far. Close/far
depends on the job.

When I took rock climbing lessons I was taught the "On belay?-Belay on" command reply , C/R. While discussing the
protocol with my instructor he told me that even if its noisy or the climber can't hear really clear, the rhythm of the words would
carry. With some emphasis the climber can make the "...ay" carry and the belayer's "...on" can also be emphasized.

I've modified the system that's taught in arboriculture a little. To simplify, the climber will yell, while facing the ground, "Clear"
nothing happens until an "All clear!" is yelled, facing the climber, by the ground crew. This breaks down the C/R to syllables.
Since there is noise on the site and some people may have ear protection, a one syllable C and a two syllable R is clear to
everyone. When there are more than one groundie in the drop zone, DZ, the climber needs to count each C/R or count on one
of the groundies to take responsibility for clearing the DZ.

Groundies are always taught to face the climber and to think ahead to second guess what the climber will be doing next. When
ever a chainsaw is heard, everyone looks at the sawyer to see what is going on.

What protocols do the rest of you follow?

Tom

 

[Ghivelder]

Hi Tom,
As I work for different gardeners, my own problem goes way beyond protocol...
Many times I just can't trust the guy below. He might tell me "All clear" and stand a couple of meters form where HE thinks the branch will fall down. Sometimes (specially with gardeners over fifty) is almost impossible to get them wearing a helmet and their attitude is that I am just too much safety concerned and don't realize how experienced they "old folks" are.
I usually end up declaring as a law that I don't want to see anyone below the tree if they hear the chainsaw and having to be really careful looking and yelling around when I cut by hand.
I wish I had a protocol problem...

Sergio

 

[treeclimber165]

Since I have been working as a freelance climber, and dating back to running a tree crew for a landscaper, I have been carrying a Fox40 whistle on my belt. With inexperienced groundies and lots of noise, I can easily get stuck for 10-15 minutes without anyone ever looking up at me. As a last resort, since I cannot seem to convince them of the importance of watching the climber, I blow the whistle whenever I need someone to actually look at me. Then a simple hand signal can communicate my intentions. It would be easier with an actual groundman who understood what they were doing, but better than beaning someone on the head or waiting for 15 minutes with an empty fuel tank.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

We try to go with the pro-to-call too; but sometimes it fades or is too noisy down there. My fox whistle doesn't seem to pierce it if it is real bad.

But, sitting up there revving the saw a few times quick seems to get the attention (not at full bore with no load please!). That seems to cut it. When this happens; every one and every tool should be clear of the canopy unless absolutely necessary for rigging. i guess at these times; eye contact, head count and cooperation with lead man is as good as we get. And i guess there should be a better second check! Wee are small; and not worrying about 10 guys running around!

When rigging, i always use slings, sometimes sending down packages of 3-6 limbs at a time; after speed lining 1-2 down the control line side first. Then, before the limbs are lowered all the way; cut the stobbs. Sometimes using the bundle of limbs as a curtain or buffer for the falling stobbs. All this effort is to work a while in the air setting this up while they are sorting an area, then send down a bundle for them to digest; while resetting or moving. i think in this way the kill zone can be shared in 'shifts '; just as long as you don't bury 'em too bad.

Sometimes, i'll work the other side of the trunk, then come back, just to allow them proper time to clear the ground. Of course having a lead man on the ground that knows how to 'bone the fish'; as other(s) pull/stack each zone; is very helpful. So is picking quick 'bulk out' points for them to keep busy first, while you go on to the rest. Then they are more likely to have something to do elsewhere right off. This is another good time for a lead groundie to run a Power Pruner to rough cut a tree; to get a look, clear a roof and put stuff on the ground; to keep 'em busy.

i think, that by having things for them to do outside the kill zone; reduces the chances that they will be in the kill zone; and reduces the temptation to rush to keep 'em busy.

Everyone clears for polesaw cutting too; they all know i can be a prankster................. so that keeps 'em on their toes too!

 

[FBerkel]

The syllable method is taught in rock climbing, too. "climbing", "tension", "up rope", "falling", all have two syllables, can't be mistaken for "slack".

We use C: "Stand clear" and R: "All clear"

I've always wondered why climbers and ground men get into the debate about who's responsible for the safety of ground men. They both are. Climber should be hyper-vigilant; this will save somebody someday.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Really like the double/single syllable trick guys!

i think that both are responsible for safety of ground guys too, climber is in 'the guard tower' a lot; able to look down on all with that eagle's view. But, just as in driving, people get lazy, and assume that the other guy is doing what he is supposed to; and they can ride and bet on that. But, to me, each should watch, so it has that double check, that is safety, just like tying in 2x for cutting.

Around here, i see school buses, roll through the stop sign at the schools, when the 15MPH light is flashing. Even with a cop there, like it is accepted. It kinda seems to have the attitude, that the light is there to allow them out, and to make you be safe for them, not like it is a final check; triangulating on safety. i really hate that, especially after having to watch and preach for everyone's safety all day.

 

[Treeman14]

Most of the time, it is simply too noisy to rely on verbal commands and resonses between climbers and ground crew. And besides, I never liked a lot of yelling on the job site. It just seems more professional to be able to work without yelling back and forth. I prefer hand signals and eye contact. Ground crews are taught to watch the climber and vice versa. A few simple hand signals or a nod of the head can convey most commands. For example:
Palm outward = Stop, move back, or wait.
Wave of the hand towards you = Move closer, or its OK to enter the drop zone.
Pat on top of head = Heads up, you're about to get clobbered.
Two fingers pointing to eyes = Look, pay attention.
Closed fist = Hold tight, or pull up the slack.
Slightly open fist shaking back and forth = Give me slack, or let it ride.
Thumb and forefinger shaped in a circle = OK, or you're an a$$hole, depending on the circumstances.
You get the idea. On crane jobs, I've also used hands-free two-way radios to communicate with the crane operator if he can't see me.

 

[Nickrosis]

It seems that the climber should make the effort for safety, but it eventually lies in the hands of the groundperson to stay out of the way because he has the feet. The view from a tree can be conveniently obstructed by branches, making it difficult for the climber to see everything. Therefore, the groundperson needs to be aware of the climber and be in sight.

This summer, I want to use two-way radios all the time in all the sectors of our work. There's no reason for us to have a half dozen laying around when they could be used to speed things along and make them more safe. Problem: if someone relies on the radio too much and a transmission isn't sent for some reason, I can see a huge problem if a limb begins to fall when it wasn't expected. A visual and/or non-radio verbal connection should also exist as a back up.

Nickrosis

P.S. Has anyone else called the climber while they were on the ground? ...or vice versa... Maybe save those comments for the ones you don't want to shout through the neighborhood like, "That last limb hit the Jaguar."

 

[Jumper]

Command Protocol

This makes good sense......I will remember to my dying day the commands given to jump out of a military airplane ("ten minutes, six minutes, look this way, stand up, hook up, check static line, check equipment, sound off for equipment check, one minute, winds XX, fifteen seconds-STANDBY!, GO!") However I think you might have problems instilling this in some ground people

 

[DDM]

After a few Stand clear commands with No response a well voiced GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!!!! or HEADACHE!!!!!!! Will get attention i seem to like the idea of a a headset 2-way though a handheld is just another device to have to remove from your or the groundies belt talk then re attach to the belt which does consume time. after 100 times per day plus in a tree a handheld is just something else to have to have a free hand to operate.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Jumper,

The reason a C/R system is required for arbos is the same reason you had a procedure for jumping, so that we all go home walking at the end of the day, week career to our families.

"I will remember to my dying day the commands given...However I think you might have problems instilling this in some ground people." The day that the groundies pay attention could be their "dying day". It's your obligation to instill this in them.

Tom

 

[Jumper]

I Agree

Being a career groundie I greatly appreciate the hazards out there: I just think that many are not interested in protocol for a wide variety of reasons. The last person I tried to assist with his first days on the jobs quit Friday as the job was "too physical". Anyways I always try to be in close communication with the climber I am working with, even if there is no set proceedure.

 

[murphy4trees]

I learned the term "headache" in the early 80's. Hand signal was patting top of the head. Two sylables is one too many for me, so we now use a term borrowed from golf, "four".
Hand signal is simple, four fingers.
Daniel

 

[DDM]

Ive learned i really only need one hand symbol!

 

[Treeman14]

Reminds me of one of my favorite bumper stickers, "HORN BROKE, WATCH FOR FINGER."