Contract fellerbuncher southeast USA

[Jhenderson]

300,000 bf and 500 cords of pulp? Can you make a decent living on that?

Depends on what you require. If you measure success in $$ alone, there's a lot better ways to go. I enjoy my work. I think what I do has long term benifits for the land owners and the environment. I've got clients that wait a year or more for me to get to them and others where I'm working the same piece for the third time in 30 years. I take great satisfaction in the work I do. I live within my means, yet I don't do without anything I need or want. It's more than I'd get out of numbers in a bank book.

 

[Jhenderson]

Is it possible that some of these big ctl outfits you've seen come and go got bit by the recession, or the general flatness of timber prices of the last 15 years or so (though right now we're doing alright on the left coast)

No, they went out by spending way too much time per tree and money on needless maint from trying to process ugly crooked wood. You can process a 23 inch tree with a 23 inch head in a minute or two easy enough if it's straight and fairly clean. You can spend 5 times that amount of time on a crooked 12 inch tree, beat up the feed motors and knife frame as well as boom pins and bushings, and loose your shirt doing it. The wood needs to match the equipment used.

 

[Skeans]

Easier said than done. We can talk till we're blue in the face but there's no substitute for feet on the ground. With the photos you guys post I honestly don't think you know what crooked, ugly wood really looks like. I've said numerous times in this thread, the wood is too crooked and bony. It's won't allow a harvester a fair shake. Nobody, but nobody ever shows a video of any machine working crooked, limby, hardwood. Much like a firewood processor sales video. They brag about turning crooked logs into firewood, then show you phone poles going through the machine. Same with harvester promotional videos. The patch I'm working now is cutting about 6 cord of firewood and 3000bf of pine to the acre. I'll get about 2 and 1/2 cords of processor quality firewood. The rest is so crooked I have to peddle it to homeowners in 12 ft lengths. That's just the way the wood grows. Besides that 3000bf of pine I'll get 6 cords of pine pulp out of those same trees. Crooked or double, sometimes triple tops. You could do it with a harvester, but you'd go broke, just all the others before you.

I do a lot of that out here it's called Alder, Maple, and Oak a good operator can produce trust me my tonnage was around 33 a pulp load 2 or so a day.

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[Jhenderson]

You read my post on the factory instructor, didn't you? I guess we're done here.

 

[bitzer]

In the central part of the state here they have pretty small ugly wood and all they do is ctl. Other then in the western part of the state in the driftless hilly region there aren't many handcutters left. I know guys who cut crappy little hardwood exclusively with machines. You couldn't make any money handcutting it. I've cut some crappy jobs like that. Might as well work at McDonald's. On my worst year so far I cut around 600mbf and 500 cords. Usually it's upwards of 8-900mbf and 700 cords. That's my saw, my forwarder, and me. So unless you're getting stumpage for nothing you must be barely scraping by in little crooked hardwood. If you came in here and kind of introduced your self, maybe threw up a few pictures of what you do that would be alright. But you come in here talking big and making dumb comments like we don't know what were talking about. Show us some pics. Show us some timber.

 

[Jhenderson]

Which dumb comments? Talking big? Look at your post. I'm not the one claiming big numbers. All I did was answer about feller buncher rates. Somehow it got turned to harvesters. I reported what I've witnessed. By the way, when speaking to the LogMax rep at the expo I was told if you spent more than one minute on a tree you were loosing money. Read what I've posted one more time. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said you'd loose money. I also said crooked and limby is relative. Which it is. Why don't you run your business and I'll run mine rather than tell me about getting by.

 

[hseII]

Which dumb comments? Talking big? Look at your post. I'm not the one claiming big numbers. All I did was answer about feller buncher rates. Somehow it got turned to harvesters. I reported what I've witnessed. By the way, when speaking to the LogMax rep at the expo I was told if you spent more than one minute on a tree you were loosing money. Read what I've posted one more time. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said you'd loose money. I also said crooked and limby is relative. Which it is. Why don't you run your business and I'll run mine rather than tell me about getting by.

Why do these threads always turn into a Chit Slinging?

The OP did start a thread asking for input on a specific machine, but the other input is relative to a point.

This is the Intertube folks: quit being so defensive.

I'm sure you do you well: I want to see what what works because I intend to do something in the future.

Please let's get back to the discussion, & away from playground fights.

 

[Jhenderson]

Why do these threads always turn into a Chit Slinging?

The OP did start a thread asking for input on a specific machine, but the other input is relative to a point.

This is the Intertube folks: quit being so defensive.

I'm sure you do you well: I want to see what what works because I intend to do something in the future.

Please let's get back to the discussion, & away from playground fights.

I agree 100%. I'm sure if we were all around the campfire the tone would be much different. It's hard to pick up on the nuances of conversation without voice and body language. I'm going to leave things as they are. When I see what's going on in the world around us I realize how insignificant these things we talk about really are. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[bitzer]

Which dumb comments? Talking big? Look at your post. I'm not the one claiming big numbers. All I did was answer about feller buncher rates. Somehow it got turned to harvesters. I reported what I've witnessed. By the way, when speaking to the LogMax rep at the expo I was told if you spent more than one minute on a tree you were loosing money. Read what I've posted one more time. I didn't say you couldn't do it. I said you'd loose money. I also said crooked and limby is relative. Which it is. Why don't you run your business and I'll run mine rather than tell me about getting by.

I'm giving you some real numbers in good timber for comparison to the numbers you gave in crappy timber. There's a reason this state is 80% mechanized. The biggest timber grows where I'm at. I'm typically cutting woodlots that are 10,20,40,80 acre pieces that are often surrounded by farm fields. 90% of the time select cuts with logs/pulp. Every year a do a big clear-cut or two for ag or development. In the northern half of the state the woods dominates the landscape. Very little to no farm land compared to here. So they are cutting many thousands of cords of hardwood or mixed stands of hard/soft or pine plantations. There are heads that are fully designed for cutting ugly little hardwood. They do it all day, every day and make money. I for one have no interest in being tied into huge payments. I like to be able to walk away from my job for a few days if I want to. The size of the timber affords me to do that. I can bang a semi load or two out in a day depending on the wood. This isn't bragging it's giving real life numbers of what I work with every day. Personally I like hearing other guys numbers. If they are low maybe I can help them up their numbers and if they are high maybe I can learn something from them.

 

[Skeans]

Also even down south the guys are adopting running dangle heads on the landing and in the brush. That being said starting out I'd be looking at what's coming down the pipe line and try to get ahead of the game.

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[1270d]

Since this seems to have turned into a harvester in ugly Harwood thread, I feel I can offer something. That's what I do almost exclusively. Of course I'd prefer good wood but it doesn't always happen.

Our Ponsse and Deere heads will work that type of wood up just fine. It takes practice and quite a bit of finesse to do it without wrecking your iron prematurely. I'm confident that I can work up any tree under 24 inch dbh in less than 10 minutes. Most in that diameter class take a couple minutes. That will usually yeild about 60 to 70 cords a day production.
We have one or two guys taking off big limbs and a buncher laying the wood out now and this roughly doubles production.

Our trees typically have ten to twenty feet before the limbs start.

I missed the part about the factory trainer. Keep in mind these guys are super knowledgeable about machine setup, troubleshooting and operator training, but aren't the best at operating. Not saying they can't do it but I think I have met most of the guys for most of the major brands here in the great lakes region, and none were top notch operators. They may have been at one time but it's a skill you lose quickly if not done daily.

 

[bitzer]

I was hoping you'd share 1270. You're one of the guys I had in mind who cuts smaller timber all day. I've met and know of many more guys who do it at SFI classes and so on. A guy would be hard pressed to make any money hand cutting it.

 

[1270d]

I was hoping you'd share 1270. You're one of the guys I had in mind who cuts smaller timber all day. I've met and know of many more guys who do it at SFI classes and so on. A guy would be hard pressed to make any money hand cutting it.

Most of the stuff we cut in a guy would be unable to make it hand sawing. The wood just doesn't have the value in it. Of course we do some jobs that would work out hand cutting, but then we can really pound it out with our mechanized crew. We would have to see a steady supply of 36 inch plus wood to ever consider going back.

 

[muddstopper]

I am looking for some numbers. . . .

I am in a unique position to acquire a CAT 573c wheeled fellerbuncher. I will be cutting primarily for the logging company I currently work for but would like to do some contract cutting.

I operate in northwestern NC, can do thinning, select cut and clearcut, also any Hand falling on the slopes or big hardwood.

I am trying to sort out what a per ton rate would be to charge for my services, obviously per ton for the bunched and per day for hand falling are common in this area.

Anybody contract with a buncher that could shed some light?

SOUTHEAST USA, Not northwest, your numbers are waaaaaaaay different.

Thanks

Well, I have read the entire thread and will admit I dont know anything about out west or north woods logging. But I do live in South west Nc and would guess my area logging conditions to be pretty close to the OP's. I grew up logging this area way back when you hand cut everything and used skidders to get the wood out. Most outfits like that are long gone. You still have a few one man shows that use the Old big stick loaders to get out a load or two a day. The big guys around here started out using hydra axes, but gave that up because of the damage the hydra axe did to the butt cut of each tree. It was alright in pulp, but messed up to many logs. Now the feller bunchers with the saw blades instead of the shears are the more common tools. Terrain determines how the timber is hauled to the buyer. The biggest outfit skids the whole tree to the landing and uses a knuckle boom loader, delimber and bucksaw to process the wood. The The knuckle boom feeds the brush to a large chipper and blows it into a large trailer. Most of this is is sold to power companies to mix with coal to generate electricity. The loader operator grades the timber as he bucks it up. veneer and peelers go straight to the mill. Butt ends and short tops after bucking are also fed to the chipper. They dont leave much behind. Only brush they dont chip are limbs that break off in the woods while skidding. Everything else goes to the wood yard. Since the timber company also owns the wood yard, the long logs get graded and bucked again. Some trees might only have one good log in it, the wood yard bucks that log off and sends the rest of the tree to the pulp mill. There just are not many big timber sales in my area anyore. The USFS doesnt do many sales anymore and private land is being sold to housing developements. I just dont think anyone can make much money logging around here anymore. Feller bunchers, loaders, trucks and trailers cost a lot of money and its hard to find a timber tract big enough to put all that equipment on. The terrain is also steep enough that you are still going to have to hand cut a lot of the timber and skid the old fashion way. Also, dont discount those old timey bigstick cable loaders, There is serious money to be made clearing house sites. Take one of those trucks with 200ft of cable and you can load out every tree on a house site sitting in one spot. Get paid for clearing the lot and sell a few hundred dollars worth of wood while your at it. Low equipment cost and pretty good wages with minimal labor.

 

[PonsseGuy]

Since this seems to have turned into a harvester in ugly Harwood thread, I feel I can offer something. That's what I do almost exclusively. Of course I'd prefer good wood but it doesn't always happen.

Our Ponsse and Deere heads will work that type of wood up just fine. It takes practice and quite a bit of finesse to do it without wrecking your iron prematurely. I'm confident that I can work up any tree under 24 inch dbh in less than 10 minutes. Most in that diameter class take a couple minutes. That will usually yeild about 60 to 70 cords a day production.
We have one or two guys taking off big limbs and a buncher laying the wood out now and this roughly doubles production.

Our trees typically have ten to twenty feet before the limbs start.

I missed the part about the factory trainer. Keep in mind these guys are super knowledgeable about machine setup, troubleshooting and operator training, but aren't the best at operating. Not saying they can't do it but I think I have met most of the guys for most of the major brands here in the great lakes region, and none were top notch operators. They may have been at one time but it's a skill you lose quickly if not done daily.

Amen to this, I started out 11 years ago running a Fabtek fixed head on a Timbco 415. Moved on to Ponsse 4 years later and never looked back. We cut primarily crooked limby black oak and white oak. Like 1270d said, 24" size trees take a few minutes if they're straight and clean. I will cut 30"+ trees unless there veneer quality or there's a high risk of cracking the butt cut while felling. CTL is being used more and more on steeper terrain and bigger wood with tethered systems, particularly in the PNW. My theory is that it will continue to become more and more widely used all over North America.

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[Skeans]

Amen to this, I started out 11 years ago running a Fabtek fixed head on a Timbco 415. Moved on to Ponsse 4 years later and never looked back. We cut primarily crooked limby black oak and white oak. Like 1270d said, 24" size trees take a few minutes if they're straight and clean. I will cut 30"+ trees unless there veneer quality or there's a high risk of cracking the butt cut while felling. CTL is being used more and more on steeper terrain and bigger wood with tethered systems, particularly in the PNW. My theory is that it will continue to become more and more widely used all over North America.

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Here in the PNW CTL it's mainly used in our ground as we can get at up to 70% there's only a few that are tether thinning I'm looking into this to get a head L&L does it for a private group that grows a plus average age same with Miller. I'll also say the guys out here that I know that have tried it long logging which is required it doesn't work they break the harvesters and forwarders, they run extensions on the forwarders from the from the pivot to the back and still break a forwarder in half. The harvester is a scorpion and it does ok but for a clear cut or steep ground they said it's not as good as a tigercat 870, they also have komatsu 931 they don't tether and say it's no comparison.

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[PonsseGuy]

Here in the PNW CTL it's mainly used in our ground as we can get at up to 70% there's only a few that are tether thinning I'm looking into this to get a head L&L does it for a private group that grows a plus average age same with Miller. I'll also say the guys out here that I know that have tried it long logging which is required it doesn't work they break the harvesters and forwarders, they run extensions on the forwarders from the from the pivot to the back and still break a forwarder in half. The harvester is a scorpion and it does ok but for a clear cut or steep ground they said it's not as good as a tigercat 870, they also have komatsu 931 they don't tether and say it's no comparison.

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That's interesting, the Harvester I run is actually one that Miller owned and my brother is running one of L&L's former harvesters. Just curious, what do you mean exactly about the 931 being no comparison? 931 is a nice machine especially now that they have a 8w version.

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