Crane hoisting climber, need help

[Climbing mike]

I am tring to find in writing that you are allowed to be lifted into a tree by tying into the crane. I know ANSI has all the standards for doing so, but Im tring to find on OSHA in writing that a., tree work is excluded from the construction standards, b., that a climber may be lifted by crane into the tree if there is not a safer way to do so. I have searchedand searched and found alot of info but not what Im looking for. Any help is much appreciated. thanks Mike


Links to web site would be helpful

 

[Zale]

You won't find what you are looking for.

 

[no tree to big]

where is Jeff when you need him

 

[Blakesmaster]

You won't find what you are looking for.

It's all in black and white on osha's site...kind of. Lol. If your harness can be classified as a bosun seat, that is. The trick is having the dimwit inspector agree that it is both the safest and only option. Assuming you've already gotten past the hurdle of convincing your rented CO to lift you.

 

[arathol]

I am tring to find in writing that you are allowed to be lifted into a tree by tying into the crane. I know ANSI has all the standards for doing so, but Im tring to find on OSHA in writing that a., tree work is excluded from the construction standards, b., that a climber may be lifted by crane into the tree if there is not a safer way to do so. I have searchedand searched and found alot of info but not what Im looking for. Any help is much appreciated. thanks Mike


Links to web site would be helpful

Just because the logging standards are in a separate standard from general construction does not mean that one does not apply to the other. The standard you are referring to is under the general construction heading, 1926.1431:



1926.1431(a)
The use of equipment to hoist employees is prohibited except where the employer demonstrates that the erection, use, and dismantling of conventional means of reaching the work area, such as a personnel hoist, ladder, stairway, aerial lift, elevating work platform, or scaffold, would be more hazardous, or is not possible because of the project's structural design or worksite conditions. This paragraph does not apply to work covered by subpart R (Steel Erection) of this part.1926.1431(b)
Use of personnel platform.
1926.1431(b)(1)
When using equipment to hoist employees, the employees must be in a personnel platform that meets the requirements of paragraph (e) of this section.
1926.1431(b)(2)
Exceptions: A personnel platform is not required for hoisting employees:
1926.1431(b)(2)(i)
Into and out of drill shafts that are up to and including 8 feet in diameter (see paragraph (o) of this section for requirements for hoisting these employees).
1926.1431(b)(2)(ii)
In pile driving operations (see paragraph (p) of this section for requirements for hoisting these employees).
1926.1431(b)(2)(iii)
Solely for transfer to or from a marine worksite in a marine-hoisted personnel transfer device (see paragraph (r) of this section for requirements for hoisting these employees).

Exceptions to the standard are clearly specified. You'll have a tough time convincing the OSHA inspector that you really needed to ride the hook to the top of the tree.

 

[jefflovstrom]

where is Jeff when you need him

Don't need me for this one. Plenty of info on this. Important to tie in correctly tho.
Jeff :biggrin:

 

[squad143]

Info here:

http://www.arboristsite.com/commercial-tree-care-climbing/191721.htm

May have to read through the usual AS bantering.

 

[ATH]

Just because the logging standards are in a separate standard from general construction does not mean that one does not apply to the other. ....

Unless something has changed, I think one does NOT apply to the other.

I spoke to the "OSHA guru" at TCIA a couple of years about a contract I was going to be doing for a firm who required that I attend their safety training. In that, they made us watch the working from heights video that covered OSHA requirements - just to name two: full body harness at all times, must be tied into a rated and labeled tie in point. I wasn't sure how this would work because hard as I have tried, I haven't found a label on a tree yet! He told me that anything under the construction standard specifically does NOT apply to tree care and OSHA could not enforce it as such.

A few years ago, OSHA said they were going to apply the logging standards to tree care which you may recall caused a little uproar. They relented and said they would not. Again, acording to the TCIA guy I talked to a couple of years ago said that meant there is no tree care standard in OSHA meaning they defer to "industry standards" which would be ANSI. So.....if you want to know about crane use in arboriculture, TCIA has guidance on the issue: Guidance for Crane Practices in Arboriculture

The purpose of this 12-page document, first and foremost, is to assist employers with assuring that their tree care operations using cranes have taken all reasonable precautions to ensure a safe operation. Secondarily, it is intended to provide guidance to the employer to avoid potential OSHA citation.

OSHA doesn’t have a problem generally with the use of cranes in arboricultural work so long as OSHA compliant procedures are followed. These procedures are summarized and explained in ANSI Z133.1

 

[jefflovstrom]

opcorn:
Jeff

 

[arathol]

Unless something has changed, I think one does NOT apply to the other.

Sure it does. The logging industry must comply with CFR 29 1926.266, but that does not mean that the rest of the standards don't apply. If you are working on or in the tree thats one thing, but the crane and its operator are still regulated by OSHA standards. As a government employee I have been to lots of OSHA training presentations done by people who work with and for OSHA and are the best in their profession. All OSHA regulations are applicable to whatever you are doing, and if you are using a crane and there is an accident believe me OSHA will be leading the investigation and citations will be issued regardless of what standard you think are operating under.
It says right on the TCIA page in the above link: OSHA doesn’t have a problem generally with the use of cranes in arboricultural work so long as OSHA compliant procedures are followed

 

[ATH]

Some clarification after re-reading the TCIA publication:

I'm not going to post quotes of the TCIA publication, because don't want to infringe on copyright...justwanted to clarify the premise, if you are not a member: It says per OSHA section 1910.180 a climber cannot ride on a crane. Using ANSI's standard to show you can is not enough to avoid a violation. If, however, the employer justifies through an affirmative defense that compliance with 1910.180 is either impossible or unsafe, then riding is acceptable. This publication helps set up that affirmative defense where it is needed.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Some clarification after re-reading the TCIA publication:

I'm not going to post quotes of the TCIA publication, because don't want to infringe on copyright...justwanted to clarify the premise, if you are not a member: It says per OSHA section 1910.180 a climber cannot ride on a crane. Using ANSI's standard to show you can is not enough to avoid a violation. If, however, the employer justifies through an affirmative defense that compliance with 1910.180 is either impossible or unsafe, then riding is acceptable. This publication helps set up that affirmative defense where it is needed.

opcorn:
Jeff

 

[ATH]

Sure it does. The logging industry must comply with CFR 29 1926.266, but that does not mean that the rest of the standards don't apply....

Not trying to argue (or intersted in it, for that matter), because I claim no expertise myself...this is just as I understand it. If I am wrong, i want to know...but on this point I don't think I am based on what I have heard from the experts and further reading.

Logging is subject to General Industry, but not specific industries (Construction, Maritime, Agriculture). For example, the 1926.1431 that you quoted above is under Part Title "Safety and Health Regulations for Construction" link

And the "scope" of the construction standard says, in part: Section 107 requires as a condition of each contract which is entered into under legislation subject to Reorganization Plan Number 14 of 1950 (64 Stat. 1267), and which is for construction, alteration, and/or repair, including painting and decorating link

So that means if you are using a crane for "construction, alteration, and/or repair, including painting and decorating" then 1926.1431 applies. If you are not, then it does not.

However, since 1910.180 is under Part Title "Occupational Safety and Health Standards" (link) it applies to everybody under the OSHA thumb.

Right???

 

[ATH]

Jeff, Here is a napkin...when you get a chance to wipe the salt & butter off your fingers I'd like to hear your thoughts. Are you entertained by my ignorance? If so :help:

 

[jefflovstrom]

Jeff, Here is a napkin...when you get a chance to wipe the salt & butter off your fingers I'd like to hear your thoughts. Are you entertained by my ignorance? If so :help:

Yes, I am totally entertained.
Jeff

 

[jefflovstrom]

Jeff, Here is a napkin...when you get a chance to wipe the salt & butter off your fingers I'd like to hear your thoughts. Are you entertained by my ignorance? If so :help:

If you want to act like a punk and give me a napkin, you can go #### yourself!
Jeff

 

[mattfr12]

There is always two sides to this debate. In my opinion a crane is a rated structure with a known capacity a tree is not. A three year old can tell which is really safer. But o well, no matter what anyone anywhere says people are still going to do it. Way more people have been killed riding bicycles than a crane.

 

[mattfr12]

If you want to act like a punk and give me a napkin, you can go #### yourself!
Jeff

Dude let it go it's not worth it. The way I see it if you can't answer your own question what the hell are you messing with cranes for. The way I beat a lot of bull crap is I own the cranes I can't really sue myself if I mess up. Only one other employer has ever ridin the ball and he might be the last. I assume all risk.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Dude let it go it's not worth it. The way I see it if you can't answer your own question what the hell are you messing with cranes for. The way I beat a lot of bull crap is I own the cranes I can't really sue myself if I mess up. Only one other employer has ever ridin the ball and he might be the last. I assume all risk.

You talking to me?, Matt, or ATH?
Jeff

 

[mattfr12]

You talking to me?, Matt, or ATH?
Jeff

Telling you not to let the guy get you all fired up. There has to be a million of these debates and its the same old ####. If people haven't figured it out yet o well. Original poster got his answer copied right out of the books and guys want to debate it.

I know or hope you understand it as i do, and if they don't I'm saying what are they doing messing with cranes anyway. Its the basics when you get a large or small telescopic license they go over this stuff. Look at my avatar I'm a fine waiting to happen. OH NO!!!

I have never heard of or seen anyone fined or have action taken upon for riding a crane ball. Tree vet posted it already, most guys use them for large or dead trees so almost every scenario a crane is going to be safer. In some scenarios two cranes is even called for. Your boss should know or have the knowledge of what will be the safest method for the work to be done. If not its time to go job hunting.