curing timbers and cants

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nolteboy

ArboristSite Lurker
Joined
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Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Hey yall

I have been getting into milling and timber framing over the past year. I have a 385xp on a logosol M7 mill. Last June I milled up some ponderosas that I had dropped on my (future) house-site into 6x6 timbers anywheres from 8 to 12 feet long, with the intent of building a timber-framed shed as practice for framing a house. I carefully stacked and stickered the timbers, put some weight on the top of the pile, and tarped the whole thing. Over the course of the summer I would haul the individual timbers down into town to cut the mortise and tenon joinery in my garage, then take them back up to 'the Hill' to be put back into the stack.

When autumn rolled around I finally had all the pieces completed and ready to go together, but after taking them out of the stack I was disappointed to discover that some of the timbers had twisted rather badly. Doing "surgery" on the joinery that I had spent so much time cutting was almost enough to make me cry (and I don’t cry easy), but I did manage to get the shed to go together.

So far I have identified a number of things that I think I did "wrong", and would like to know which ones were the "wrongest", as well what other factors I haven't yet considered might have contributed...

1. My stack of timbers was in an open clearing getting full sun all day over the course of the whole summer. Sure it was tarped, but those timbers were really warm. I am thinking this was the biggy - i.e. accelerated drying resulting in more twisting than would have occurred if the drying had been slower (or is this really true? In other words, is the same amount and type/direction of movement going to be observed in an individual piece of wood regardless of how fast it dries?)
2. I did not seal the ends of any of the timbers with paint, sealer, etc.
3. As a novice sawyer, I don't really know all that much about 'reading' a log in order to cut it in such a way as to reduce warping, twisting, etc. I just eyeball it and go. Most of the timbers were more or less boxed-heart.

The whole experience has really driven home to me the need for carefully-controlled drying and curing, and I am hoping to get some advice from those who have been at it for longer than myself. I think about the same thing happening in a couple years with my house timbers and break out in a cold sweat. Granted, all wood is going to move and change as it cures – I am just trying to learn ways to control the process as much as I can. (links or references to other good information sources are also appreciated)

nolteboy
(northern Colorado)
 
Nolte-I have some experience with ponderosa pine. In general, you can cut and build when lumber is wet or you can stack the logs and cut after it's dry. What you did was cut wet and wait for it to dry and the wood will change from quite a bit to drastically depending on how the tree grew when it was alive. For example I've seen douglas fir that grew like a corkscrew and some are very straight growing with minimal twist. The only way you can know this is to strip the bark off and observe the wood fibers along it's length. If you are not pressed for time I would cut the logs and let them dry. Ponderosa is very easy to peel on fresh cut logs that were alive when cut. If you cut them and dry with the bark on they are a bear to peel later without mechanical means. Of course with an alaskan mill you can just slab off the 4 sides with bark on.
I built a two story cabin 20 years ago. I peeled the trees with an axe right after cutting but only after I had dragged the logs up to the build site. Leaving the bark on while dragging protects the wood from damage-after logs were at the stack next to the build site my brother and I peeled them and then put the log on the stack to dry. You will get alot of splits and checking with this method but that's what we did. Base logs were 18-22" and tapered to smaller logs towards the top. Anyway, 66 logs later and 3 years down the road we built the cabin. In your case I would probably saw green but in as big a dimension as possible and sticker and stack. Then slice them down a year later. The problem with pine logs with bark on is they hold moisture very well even if off the ground. It doesn't take long for the wood worms to start eating in either. They won't bother though if the bark is off in my opinion. Aside from the cabin I built the rest is conjecture as I have not milled this way to verify. I have used green sawn 8x8" by 10' cants and built with those and it turned out fine, but they did crack and check as they dried out also some twist but minimal as I impact lagged everything together to help control movement during building process. I've used big architectural grade douglas fir that did the same thing and it was kiln dried(#1 grade) they will twist also but how you anchor the ends is key. If you saw green, I believe it would be beneficial to peel the log to see how much twist it has before deciding lengths. Not saying that's what you should do. Those logs that are Ncorkscrews can be cut into shorter lengths to minimize twist impact to your building project. The nice straight ones will work better in longer beams-that's if straightness with minimal twist is key. I don't know anyone that bothers with this and I doubt I would either. All I'm saying is this method is the only way I know to weed out the weird trees you get now and then. Come to think of it I'd say that with the pines I've seen this isn't a huge problem for most part. Again, what I've said is limited to what I've personally seen. Others here may have done many post/beam projects that can clarify better than I. I'll follow the thread to see what I can learn also. Good luck:popcorn:
 
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Hey yall

I have been getting into milling and timber framing over the past year. I have a 385xp on a logosol M7 mill. Last June I milled up some ponderosas that I had dropped on my (future) house-site into 6x6 timbers anywheres from 8 to 12 feet long, with the intent of building a timber-framed shed as practice for framing a house. I carefully stacked and stickered the timbers, put some weight on the top of the pile, and tarped the whole thing. Over the course of the summer I would haul the individual timbers down into town to cut the mortise and tenon joinery in my garage, then take them back up to 'the Hill' to be put back into the stack.

When autumn rolled around I finally had all the pieces completed and ready to go together, but after taking them out of the stack I was disappointed to discover that some of the timbers had twisted rather badly. Doing "surgery" on the joinery that I had spent so much time cutting was almost enough to make me cry (and I don’t cry easy), but I did manage to get the shed to go together.

So far I have identified a number of things that I think I did "wrong", and would like to know which ones were the "wrongest", as well what other factors I haven't yet considered might have contributed...

1. My stack of timbers was in an open clearing getting full sun all day over the course of the whole summer. Sure it was tarped, but those timbers were really warm. I am thinking this was the biggy - i.e. accelerated drying resulting in more twisting than would have occurred if the drying had been slower (or is this really true? In other words, is the same amount and type/direction of movement going to be observed in an individual piece of wood regardless of how fast it dries?)
2. I did not seal the ends of any of the timbers with paint, sealer, etc.
3. As a novice sawyer, I don't really know all that much about 'reading' a log in order to cut it in such a way as to reduce warping, twisting, etc. I just eyeball it and go. Most of the timbers were more or less boxed-heart.

The whole experience has really driven home to me the need for carefully-controlled drying and curing, and I am hoping to get some advice from those who have been at it for longer than myself. I think about the same thing happening in a couple years with my house timbers and break out in a cold sweat. Granted, all wood is going to move and change as it cures – I am just trying to learn ways to control the process as much as I can. (links or references to other good information sources are also appreciated)

nolteboy
(northern Colorado)
Well, I'm by no measure an expert on this subject, however I've been doing a lot of reading about tember framing. In all that I've read the frame and M/T work is done on green wood then erected while still wet and green. This may account for the way the masters get it done without having the problems you've encountered. It would be interesting to see pic's of your problem and solution. Perhaps we all can learn from your experience.
Leroy
 
I'm in process of building timber frame too, will break ground this spring.I'm doing it myself so I've been letting tiimbers dry so they will be ligther and aesier to work with. Some are twisting, most are not. I think ony mistake you made is notching things before you gave them time to do their thing.This is my 2 cents on the subject but I by no means am a pro at this, I'm learning as I go and hoping for the best,good luck leroy.:cheers:
 
Looks like it turned out very nice to me.

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You don't have any doug fir on your prop? fir is about twice the strength of pondersa pine. But you've built it very stout imo, even with pond pine.

I plan to use the pond pine I have for siding and thats it.
 
Wow, it's either the camera angle or thats some twist in the upper left rafter!

Any pictures of the end grain of the timbers that tiwted and warped the most?
 
Jake – your observations ring true – thanks for sharing your experience.

Leroy in McPherson – you’re absolutely right – the pro’s totally mad dog it and bang the whole thing out almost before it’s even had time to realize it’s not alive anymore. The frame is already locked together before the curing (and even most of the drying) has gotten started. For my one-man operation (compounded by my being a slow newbie) framing a whole building takes months (compounded even more by full-time employment having nothing to do with timber framing). As you've intimated, my problem is NOT a typical one for a pro timber framer.

Leroy in Idaho – sounds like you’re on the right track. Good luck with your project.

SilverBox – I have very little doug fir, and none of it big enough. I am in the foothills west of Fort Collins, not high enuff in altitude for DF or lodgepole.

Kicker – that is not the camera angle, it is twist. I will take some more up-close photo’s when I’m up there this weekend and post them.

All – I’m not trying to take this forum too far ‘off topic’ with this thread (my apologies if I am). Much appreciate your comments!

nolteboy
 
BTW: Nice job on the framing, that would have very been difficult with pieces twisting like that.

Would it be better to saw wider slabs, then re-saw into the beams once they are dried? I'm thinking that a wider cross-section would be more resistant to twisting while it's stickered and stacked then squarish pieces.

I'd suspect that most of the twisted pieces are rift-sawn...
 
Nolte one thing that might come in handy with twisted items is a powered hand planer I don't know if you have power. I've matched machined log profiles before with my planer and it also will help taming twist issues so things can still be assembled straight. For that twisted rafter on the end, for instance-if it raises up 3/8'' you can shave it down even with the other rafters so you planking will lie straight. Wood is dynamic you just work with it. If the end result is straight and quality then mission accomplished. Project looks good to me. With the short spans on your rafters the pine will be fine. How did you join the rafter elements together? I see some of the joints any pegs, lags, or dovetails?
 
I've been wanting to do the same type of building with post/beam construction, what i wonder is how they did it 100 years ago?as far as drying ect. i have mostly oak in volume.
 
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I took another look at this and the foundation has me a bit worried, you do have like a 1'x1'x1' cube at least of concrete in the ground under the piers that are showing right? Wouldn't want your shed to sink lopsided..
 
One thing I've found with my wood, mostly grand fir, is that if I cut 4x6 or 6x8 they twist like crazy. If i cut 6x6 or 8x8, let them dry then resaw them to 4x6 or 6x8 I have alot better luck.Maybe something to do with more even tension, beats me, I'm new at this milling stuff.I built my sawmill with twisted 4x6 for rafters, wasn't going to throw them away, looks ok really.I've also built my barn with whatever I could make work, it's all been practice for house I'll start this summer, hopefully I have made most of my mistakes already.Hopefully!
 
couple more photo's

A photo of the timbers themselves, before assembly.

Also another shot of the frame from a different view. You can see awfulness where the gable end rafters join at peak, and also at the joining of the sill plates at the corner closest to viewer.

Yes, I do have plenty of concrete in the footers!

nolteboy
 
Sawyerlogingon "I built my sawmill with twisted 4x6 for rafters, wasn't going to throw them away, looks ok really".

Somehow, it seems to me that if you are using twisted 4x6's and sawing on twisted boards, It should come out streight. ???????? right?
 
"How did you join the rafter elements together? I see some of the joints any pegs, lags, or dovetails?" (big jake)

The rafters are tongue and fork joints at the peak, and are double pegged. On the tie beam end the rafters have a tenon that fits into the tie beam, and that is pegged thru as well.

Purlins join to rafters with dovetail joints.

No metal in the frame - all traditional joints.

nb
 

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