Cutting a Dutchman

[Burvol]

The dutchman is pretty fun indeed, but when you loose your momentum on the swing, it can really suck. I use them on certain situations, but never near the road, crummy, or RMZ's. Hey Bushler, have you ever seen guys saw a "relief" into the stump, boring down into the one side below a corner into the roots, to get some tension off?

 

[Bushler]

Burvol, funny you asked that, I did just a couple days ago, and while thinking about how I should get the camera....the tree rocked over and set down on my saw bar. By the time I got that tree on the ground I was hating. At one point I had one saw bar (minus motor cuz I thought the sucker might come over the stump), three wedges, and the back up saw, all stuck.

I used my third saw to cut the offending root, and rocked the chain.

rule #9. Never take a camera to work....

 

[Burvol]

Oh boy...

 

[056kid]

Mr Murphy

Sounds like some of my days! You know that when the s&!^ starts hitting the fan it just keeps flying till your blood pressure it self could be used to power a jack for the offending #0d Da%n son-ova B*$}h tree!!!

 

[Humptulips]

Burvol, funny you asked that, I did just a couple days ago, and while thinking about how I should get the camera....the tree rocked over and set down on my saw bar. By the time I got that tree on the ground I was hating. At one point I had one saw bar (minus motor cuz I thought the sucker might come over the stump), three wedges, and the back up saw, all stuck.

I used my third saw to cut the offending root, and rocked the chain.

rule #9. Never take a camera to work....

If you didn't get stuck once in a while you'd be retired.

Once we pulled a cedar on the cutting line that leaned over the creek. It was good sized and pretty much fell apart into slabs when it hit the ground. I had to get a buck in it to yard it and it had a good deal of bind. Before it was over I had every saw on the claim out on the rigging. At one time I had 4 stuck and was using the last saw we had. It started pinching in the middle of the cut and I barely got it out.

 

[abrogard]

I don't understand the need for it. If your hinge is facing the way you want it to fall what more do you need?

 

[wildwes]

I don't understand the need for it. If your hinge is facing the way you want it to fall what more do you need?

You ever see a tree leaning a direction other than where you want it to fall?

 

[James Sawyer]

Not here

Bushler, you are a faller, I have looked at your pictures here and your work is good. There are very few fallers here, I have fell more trees than most arborists, that is felled them with just a saw, axe and wedges. But I am not a faller, I don't even play one on tv, however I have worked with fallers, worked in the bush many times and seen what they fall.

Please don't be talking about an advanced thing like the dutchman here, lots of people here think they are fallers, but are not. A case in point, the talk over whether leaving more holding wood on the off lean side makes any difference. And the constant debate about wrap handles, big dogs and the like. And even if you need wedges, and so on.


The intentional dutchmen is for experienced fallers only, it is banned in B.C. I appreciate your help, but this may inspire some to go far beyond their capabilities. Many arborists are useless when it comes to falling, although they are legends in thier own minds, seen it.

So many things can go wrong falling using a dutchman unless you know what you're doing. The tree species, the tree position. The tree is going sit down on your bar as it comes around, and you'll have tickle it once it lifts as it steps thru each dutchman. It's a good way to getting into a barb chair or smash your saw. My Dad is the dutchman king, swinging trees into the lay. My dad fell for 53 years, and I've seen when they don't always go as planned. If you don't know what you're doing, it's a good way to get killed. I've seen a lot of them done and some that didn't go well too. If you haven't done one... just plan on it not going well because that is most likely what's going to happen... there is no time... your right, there to make one work.

 

[abrogard]

You ever see a tree leaning a direction other than where you want it to fall?

That's a rather supercilious remark isn't it? Do I have to spell it out? Here you go then, just for you: when a tree is leaning in a direction you do not want it to fall you nevertheless cut the notch and the hinge so that it will fall in the direction you want. And you cut the kind of hinge required i.e. it may be thicker at one end in order to prevent the tree having its way and falling with the lean despite your hinge. These are the 'normal' methods.
Then there are many warnings about using a 'dutchman' hence it naturally raises the question: why use it at all as it seems to be a matter of choice and apparently oft times a dangerous choice.
If we can avoid fascetious responses it is a sensible question to ask.
Have you ever heard of 'sensible' ?

 

[wildwes]

That's a rather supercilious remark isn't it? Do I have to spell it out? Here you go then, just for you: when a tree is leaning in a direction you do not want it to fall you nevertheless cut the notch and the hinge so that it will fall in the direction you want. And you cut the kind of hinge required i.e. it may be thicker at one end in order to prevent the tree having its way and falling with the lean despite your hinge. These are the 'normal' methods.
Then there are many warnings about using a 'dutchman' hence it naturally raises the question: why use it at all as it seems to be a matter of choice and apparently oft times a dangerous choice.
If we can avoid fascetious responses it is a sensible question to ask.
Have you ever heard of 'sensible' ?

No more supercilious than making your very first post on a site "If your hinge is facing the way you want it to fall what more do you need?"

Sure, the dutchman can be dangerous, and it certainly shouldn't be done by just anyone, but that doesn't mean that there is not a place for it. Plenty of times in ANY industry there are practices involving elevated risk that are useful, and sometimes downright necessary.

And besides, I was asking an honest question- that was your first post here, you might have never held a chainsaw before for all anyone knows. Or maybe you're a professional faller. I certainly can't consider myself a faller, but I have seen times when others have been able to put trees where they wanted them with a dutchman when I didn't think it could be done, and when I am almost positive it couldn't have been done with just a normal notch.

And If you are going to get so worked up over my response with a straightforward question, I would imagine that I'm not the one whose sensibility needs questioning here.

 

[Seachaser]

Most of the posters in this thread have not been on this site in 9-15 years.

 

[wildwes]

I didn't even notice that the thread was from so long ago, I just saw it pop up on the latest activity thing from where "abrogard" posted in it. Guess I should pay a little closer attention next time lol

 

[Mac&trees]

Thanks, Hump.

Clearence, I appreciate your concern, and I thought about that when I posted. Thats why I made a special effort to advise that a dutchman was for experienced fallers only. Re-read my post re: Note:.......

I was hoping this site would be a good place to exchange ideas and tips on how to refine our individual techniqes for doing a hard job. New tools, a better way, etc.

Now, you're putting a burden on me that I find uncomfortable. Am I suppose to be responsible for someone getting hurt trying to cut a tree? I thought Darwin covered that in his book, Evolution of Species.

Burden for you and me both. I work in the line clearance industry. I haven’t found a tree that I have walked away from yet. Share away. I like the additional info. I will try out and add to my resources. Both jobs are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[davidwyby]

Simple demo of a dutchman :





Here is an impressive example of a dutchman and sizwheel, or similar to the extreme. best video capture of one I've seen.



@abrogard these "parlor trick" cuts don't work on brittle trees like the euc that I and I guess you might cut.

 

[iowa_jim]

if you handed a powersaw to an OSHA official and said, "show me
the acceptable way to cut a tree"

they would reply "oh i don't know how to cut down a tree.
i just know you didn't do it right."

That's the truth! They can audit your facility today. A person gets hurt tomorrow and they'll say your facility was wrong.

 

[slowp]

That's the truth! They can audit your facility today. A person gets hurt tomorrow and they'll say your facility was wrong.

Having worked as a "they" but not for OSHA, I can say that I can tell when a faller knows what they are doing. Yet, I am not comfy falling trees at all, but I've been around it enough to have learned a bit of stuff and have seen the big difference between a production faller and a weekend warrior or firewood hack. It can be done if you've watched, asked questions, and maybe even helped a little bit (carrying the fuel).

 

[wildwes]

Having worked as a "they" but not for OSHA, I can say that I can tell when a faller knows what they are doing. Yet, I am not comfy falling trees at all, but I've been around it enough to have learned a bit of stuff and have seen the big difference between a production faller and a weekend warrior or firewood hack. It can be done if you've watched, asked questions, and maybe even helped a little bit (carrying the fuel).

You're probably more the exception than the rule. Most of the OSHA folks I have worked around can quote rules and policies verbatim, but have zero real world experience or knowledge.

 

[calamari]

It's an old post but the subject is still of interest today. I'd suggest that you practice on very small trees say 8-9" in diameter or a bigger tree if it's busted off so you can manhandle it around if it goes south on you. Cutting a 15" stub that's broken off and is only 10' long will turn the same as a full grown tree.
Gravity and wood work the same for small trees and big ones so you can get a feel for how to move trees in directions they don't want to naturally fall in on trees you can shove back wards for example if your saw gets pinched.
Saw too big for pecker poles like I suggest? Use a hand saw. The wood doesn't care.

 

[davidwyby]

I have not had luck with tricky cuts in small trees. Run out of wood, bar too big...small saw as said.

 

[davidwyby]