Cutting oak trees

[imagineero]

I had to get out my crayons

This is a version of the coos bay that I haven't seen around much. I think from memory I picked it up from Gerry Beranek. There's no face at all. You just cut the sides out, and then a quick back cut. Take as much out of the sides as you dare, and the closer you get the cuts to parallel with the direction of lay the more you can take out of the sides without the holding wood side snapping. There's obviously no directional control, but heavy leaners are generally going only one way anyhow. This is a good safe and easy cut, it prevents chairing in a different way from the face/bore/back cut. The reason if doesn't chair is because you've taken so much of the sides out. The back cut is in the same plane as the side cuts. The cuts don't all have to match perfectly but it's nice if they do.

I was very skeptical about this cut when I first saw it, the whole idea of not using a face was just too weird. I tried it a few times, then thought about it, tried it a few more times, thought about it etc etc... It makes sense to me now not to use a face for this because you're just taking out holding wood which will make the tree come down earlier (a bad thing). With no face, you can take out a lot of side wood. I've used this cut to take out many heavy head leaners, as much as 45* and it has always gone well.

Shaun

 

[bitzer]

I've posted these before too. Hopefully the OP does show up again.

White oak with the no face coos. Direction of fall would be north in the picture. Small tree maybe 16" on the stump, but it was like a rainbow. The cuts are not as clean as I would have liked, but I was running a brand new cannon and I didn't want it pinched and have the tree take it for a ride. I made the first cut on the right with the bottom of the bar and back cut the left until she popped. I did this cut on a 24" maple yesterday that had partially tipped with the back of the root ball coming out of the ground. Maple is not prone to chair, but it worked well. The tree was tipped at about a 45. Its a funny feeling when the ball is picking up that you are standing on as you are cutting.

Ash with the triangle style back cut. Penciled in the first cuts in the back for emphasis. All 3 back cuts were made with the saw wide open. There usually isn't time for screwing around on leaners.

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[HuskStihl]

There usually isn't time for screwing around on leaners.

As always awesome Bob.

Ok, I have really small shriveled balls. Don't laugh it's a serious and embarassing medical condition. One side effect of the condition is that I am really scared of trees.

You are crazy good at 'splainin stuff so I can understand, so riddle me this..

Why is it OK, if not preferable, for a noob like me or the op to stand directly in the path of a 5000 pound, already open faced leaner and stick his saw into the face, hoping to not go through the back, but it is less desirable to stand to the side and stick the saw in behind the face? I am currently (temporarily) sober, and not trying to start a fight. Just curious

 

[slowp]

Male anatomy has nothing to do with having common sense. Just a reminder....unless you have that trailer hitch decoration. Then, I'm sure you are able to cut any tree in any situation, without any help--mechanical, internet or human.

 

[mdavlee]

For one you can see where you're cutting easier through the face. You don't have to be right under it any way. You can be off to the side like putting in the back cut. Go from both sides if you need to. I don't usually bore through the things since I've never had a tree way bigger than the bar. I have done the Swedish dance around the stump on some other trees that I wanted all control on.

 

[JakeG]

OP, if you want a visual of what bitzer said... See page 34-35 http://tnvalleywoodclub.org/articles/PDFs/Tree_Felling_Presentation.pdf

If you're still a severe noob (and I'm not saying you are, just sayin'), opt out of felling heavy leaners.

 

[HuskStihl]

Male anatomy has nothing to do with having common sense. Just a reminder....unless you have that trailer hitch decoration. Then, I'm sure you are able to cut any tree in any situation, without any help--mechanical, internet or human.

I don't drive a Prius, but if I did I would definitely put "Truck Nuts" on it. It would also probably be a pretty pearlescent blue color, cause that's how I roll:biggrin:

I'm sure you guessed, Ms. P, but I did not intend that as a slight against our female-bodied forest dwellers

 

[Cfaller]

I had to get out my crayons

This is a version of the coos bay that I haven't seen around much. I think from memory I picked it up from Gerry Beranek. There's no face at all. You just cut the sides out, and then a quick back cut. Take as much out of the sides as you dare, and the closer you get the cuts to parallel with the direction of lay the more you can take out of the sides without the holding wood side snapping. There's obviously no directional control, but heavy leaners are generally going only one way anyhow. This is a good safe and easy cut, it prevents chairing in a different way from the face/bore/back cut. The reason if doesn't chair is because you've taken so much of the sides out. The back cut is in the same plane as the side cuts. The cuts don't all have to match perfectly but it's nice if they do.

I was very skeptical about this cut when I first saw it, the whole idea of not using a face was just too weird. I tried it a few times, then thought about it, tried it a few more times, thought about it etc etc... It makes sense to me now not to use a face for this because you're just taking out holding wood which will make the tree come down earlier (a bad thing). With no face, you can take out a lot of side wood. I've used this cut to take out many heavy head leaners, as much as 45* and it has always gone well.

Shaun

I also like this version of the coos bay. A couple of things to add would be to put wedges in your side cuts. This is really important if the tree also has some side lean to it. I like to put the wedges where the face cut would normally go. If you set them to far back you'll end up cutting them when you make your back cut. One other thing is to make sure the side cuts are horizontal to each other. I'll scribe the bark to help do this.

Leaner's felled with this cut also roll out of other trees nicely with this cut.

 

[Boleclimber]

I use the bore cut method on all saw log timber. Depending on the tree at hand I may cut the heart and side holding wood on the hinge in the process. Using a bore cut requires leaving enough hinge to hold the fall direction but not enough hinge to cause a barber chair. In my experience the bore cut reduces the possibility of a tree setting back and pinching the bar.

 

[bitzer]

Bore cutting has nothing to do with reducing the chance of a tree sitting back and is not necessary for every tree or as I've found not necessary at all. Anyway....

Jon here is why you can get away with boring the heart form the face.

On a tree leaning as hard as this white oak was this is approximately where the compression and tension wood was. When you bore that heart out from the face nearly all of that wood behind the face is tension wood which means more than half the wood on the stump is keeping that tree there. The only kicker would be is that the wood is unsound which if it were the tree would most likely not be standing anyway. Boring the heart wood does two things- removes compression wood and also reduces fiber pull out of the butt log. It really has nothing to do with how the back cut is made. you can bore the heart and the back cut if you want. If you bore your back cut from the side there is a very good chance of the tree sitting down on your saw hard. Usually as soon as you poke through the far side. Can it be done that way sure. I used to do it all the time. You just have to be super careful. For me though boring takes nearly twice as long as the coos bay and it really screws your day when your saw is clutch side down inches from the dirt and the dogs are touching the wood as the tree sits down really hard on your bar as you bore the back cut.

Just to clear up any confusion this is how I made the bore and back cuts. Both back cuts I am standing behind the tree. I do not believe that a hard leaner needs a shallower face. I think its the opposite. If you only make a face 1/4 way into the tree you are leaving all of that compression wood behind it which retains that chair tendency. On this oak I had to ream a little on my gunning (horizontal) cut to get it back to where I wanted it. This can get you into trouble if you are not used to feeling your saw being pinched.

This is how bad this white oak was leaning and how heavy the top was. I think I made 4 10s and an 8 out of it. There was a pretty heavy top on it too.

Just another clarification on that no face coos white oak.

Also white oak swings very well. Its stringy enough to stay on the stump instead of pop off allowing for the swing. You just have to have it cut up right in the face and Dutchman. I actually like swinging them. I've cut 70mbf jobs where 90% of the wood was white oak and a lot of it leaning. Lots of time to get creative.
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[JakeG]

Howdy Bitzer, your first two pictures look like my stumps on heavy leaning white oaks. The only difference is I'm not standing behind the stump for the 2nd/final back cut. I move off to the text book "safe-zone" area using the back bar again. So, 1st back cut I'm standing behind the stump perpendicular to the hinge. 2nd back cut my bar is parallel to the hinge and I'm neither diretly behind the stump nor 90* to the face. So question is, should I be behind the stump or does it matter in most cases? Everything I've learned says don't stand behind the stump.

Thanks for the explanation and pics on the no face coos. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about the no face coos but then again, I haven't been on AS for long! By looking at your pic, I can see how it works... Good job sir :msp_thumbup:

 

[Boleclimber]

Bitzer, I disagree. Bore cutting allows you to place wedges and pressure them before cutting the backwood. If the sawyer misjudges a slight lean, the saw is free and the wedges take the weight.

 

[Gologit]

Bitzer, I disagree. Bore cutting allows you to place wedges and pressure them before cutting the backwood. If the sawyer misjudges a slight lean, the saw is free and the wedges take the weight.

Go back and read Bitzer's description again. He knows what he's doing. You, by comparison and in this particular case, do not.

I know that you mean well but there's a tremendous difference in the skill and experience level between the two of you.

 

[HuskStihl]

Thanks Bitz, those are beautiful stumps and very well explained. Most guys on this forum have a pretty good and accurate idea of my ability level (unlike me!), but I've been enjoying "Swedishing" hardwood leaners recently. I stick in a face, bore out chairing wood and back bar the strap. I don't really even have to move my feet, which helps me stay pudgy.
This drives busted crazy, but every month or so I adopt a new falling technique, incorrectly apply it to some trees, make a video for y'all's amusement and move on to the next technique. If I were a production faller I would prolly approach it differently

 

[Gologit]

.... every month or so I adopt a new falling technique, incorrectly apply it to some trees, make a video for y'all's amusement and move on to the next technique.

Nothing wrong with trying different techniques. It's called learning. Sometimes all you'll learn is not to use that particular technique in that particular instance...but it's still learning.

As far as being a production faller goes, all we really know for sure is that even with all of our knowledge and skill and tricky cuts, every once in awhile the tree will do something totally unexpected.

You can fall a hundred trees and have everything go exactly the way you want it to and you get to thinking that you're pretty good. Then, that next tree will do something that has you running for your life. It humbles you...and it should.

I had a big cedar set down on my bar a few years back, mainly because I'd gotten in a hurry and misjudged the lean. It was almost all the way sawed up and the wind was rocking it back and forth on the hinge. Nasty situation. I was beating wedges and cussing and beating some more and cussing and doubling up the wedges and cussing. My partner had heard all the commotion and he hollered over at me..."Hey, just throw your reputation at it...that SOB will fall right over". Like I said...humbling.

 

[treeslayer2003]

Nothing wrong with trying different techniques. It's called learning. Sometimes all you'll learn is not to use that particular technique in that particular instance...but it's still learning.

As far as being a production faller goes, all we really know for sure is that even with all of our knowledge and skill and tricky cuts, every once in awhile the tree will do something totally unexpected.

You can fall a hundred trees and have everything go exactly the way you want it to and you get to thinking that you're pretty good. Then, that next tree will do something that has you running for your life. It humbles you...and it should.

I had a big cedar set down on my bar a few years back, mainly because I'd gotten in a hurry and misjudged the lean. It was almost all the way sawed up and the wind was rocking it back and forth on the hinge. Nasty situation. I was beating wedges and cussing and beating some more and cussing and doubling up the wedges and cussing. My partner had heard all the commotion and he hollered over at me..."Hey, just throw your reputation at it...that SOB will fall right over". Like I said...humbling.

so tru right there. i'd say that happens to everyone.....exept Randy.

 

[Boleclimber]

Go back and read Bitzer's description again. He knows what he's doing. You, by comparison and in this particular case, do not.

I know that you mean well but there's a tremendous difference in the skill and experience level between the two of you.

Was that you I saw creeping around the woodlot I was on this past week? I was wondering who was attempting to learn my experience level.

 

[HuskStihl]

Was that you I saw creeping around the woodlot I was on this past week? I was wondering who was attempting to learn my experience level.

Sorry, that was me. I eventually get around to spying on all AS members, trying to find people who match cuts worse than me. So far I've found 7 only of about 2350 I've seen. I'm not going to give out names, to protect the guilty, but you're not on the list. Carry on as you were. I'll of course delete the videos I made of you cutting

 

[HuskStihl]

You can fall a hundred trees and have everything go exactly the way you want it to and you get to thinking that you're pretty good. Then, that next tree will do something that has you running for your life. It humbles you...and it should.

I don't need 100 to be humbled. There's a certain feeling you get when you are ####ing up a face cut. I've ####ed them up accidentally, and on purpose, but the result is similar. You beat wedges with the hope you can fix it, but you know that sooner or later, the tree will fall the wrong direction and hit that one thing you were trying to avoid. It's actually worse cause you have plenty of time to curse your stupidity before and after.

I've fallen a couple that I thought I did everything right and stood there dumbfounded watching it smash a fence or something else.

I intentionally talk a big game just to keep Busted in panic/nanny mode:msp_biggrin:, but know my limitations.

Bob, I did hear you got around a bit in high school, but I wouldn't say you have a "reputation".:jester:

Hope y'all have a safe and profitable week

 

[HuskStihl]

So far I've found 7 only of about 2350 I've seen. I'm not going to give out names, to protect the guilty

One of their user names rhymes with Grass Twine Fly, another with Pan-O, and I can't mention a third as he was placed in falling witless protection