Danger Bowline!

[xtremetrees]

For over 10 years I have been using the bowline in a dangerous way. When chunking 10 foot pieces on my way down, I have always tied a running bowline below my safely, munter in to that rope and after i chunk rapell down to my next piece.Leaveing that rope to pull with.

This Is a bad idea. Why? If the piece your cutting rips on either side the running bowline will be pulled apart. What is needed is a secure knot at this critical tie in point. Big loggers use chain and buckle to secure the wood from splitting. Think I was using a running bowline.

Here is a knot that is about as simple as one can get and is faster than any other knot I know. Unties easy under load as well. Problem is I dont know the name of it.
Here's the pics.

 

[xtremetrees]

Something so simple could have squashed me for years. I rule out MURPHY one more time!

 

[xtremetrees]

I did not get a finished knot pic. It appears to be a square knot kinda locked off. This is approaching the final sequence in dressing it. Thats all ive got on the knot.
Anyone know the final step or the name of this most basic knot?
Thanks

 

[wiley_p]

If I wasn't such a savage I'd would be able to put a photo on the site, Anyway the knot I use when topping, takeing logs etc. is a constrictor knot, it was used back before steam on boats for repairing split masts etc. it is as strong as your rope, if the spar splits on you, b-chair etc the hitch locks tighter. I'll bet Tom Dunlap can put it on ere, its in Ashleys book I belieive. ???? fine knot. also a clove w/half hitch backup will suffice. I've taught that knot to new removal guys now for 6 years. One climber had an incident using the running bowline in a tree he should have turned down. improper face/backcut wound up getting his testicles crushed. He had to be cut out of the tree the way I understand. Common sense would show that a choking hitch would open from the inside.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

A constrictor, to me is a clove(that 'walks') sitting on it's own tail/bootstrap; it must be tied on something round to compress/lock in from all sides to secure. Used also for tying sacks etc. shut and spar work, and other round mounts.

Make clove on stick in end of line, pass free/standing end as it exits knot and pass it under the other ring and out, 2x for a double constrictor, i prefer a bight laced for slipped constrictor for a few things.

It is called a constrictor, cuz it can lock down relentlessly and need cut off sometimes; it holds with such a grip on round items, whereas a square mount would allow some areas of the knot not to be seated to mount and thereby loosen. i can also testify that a constrictor in throwline has made some emergency roadside hose clamps (double constricotr tightened with pull handle sticks/pliers from either end) in my time.

To make in a bight; lay line down straight for 1' or so, then working one end bend line back around to arc back over itself, keep going, arc back over line again, as to make glasses or loose laid '8'; then still holding that same piece, bring under center of both lines of '8' and out. Pick knot up by center allowing both sides of 8 to fall down together, as you pick up from center. Throw over open mount of short pole etc. (or water hose!).

i've done that a few times on spars, but generally would bind with binding strap to fortify with pressure and also lock as constrictor too if any doubt at all. Short of that, i make some binding with slings/loop runners i carry. Gotta do, what ya can!

 

[MasterBlaster]

I don't understand the whole concept of having to rappel ten feet down a spar.

 

[NickfromWI]

Butch, how do you come down when chunking? Spikes and flipline?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Mb, each situation different, but there are times when its nice to be tied in from above. It can be very uncomfortable working off a lanyard.
If I have an 066 with a 3 foot bar hanging on my belt, being tied in from above can make it much more comfortable. It also helps when making a notch in the log. Then move down, do the back cut, and repeat.
It's nice to have the option, the tools, and know how to do it.

 

[Stumper]

Xtreme, Your knot appears to be a Surgeons knot.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Isn't that a square knot?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i sometimes would carry 3 lines on me, all rigging grade in excess of lanyard and lifeleine; when blocking down like that. From top of spar, rear side set half hitch to running bowline then through a 'V' or trench in wood to lay line in from half hitch over the top, into groove to feed down in front of next face, ride down, but also safetyed in for this is only a rigging grade line, that i don't use for safety, only alignmeant. Make face, detatch from line and over the top line becomes becomes highest leverage pull line, also most tumbling arc off the hinge, more important as angle of pull line gets closer to horizontal IMLHO.

While both of those lines are on the ground, i have 3rd line that i set as previously, so am working before lines return; setting rigging with one to catch, and hanging the other on belt for next round.

If ground is taking longer, can preset 3rd line to hang down back side; been doing so long that when i used to make all conventiona knotches, i would cut a small "V" in front center floor of horizontal lower cut(to lace next over the top line in) as a matter of course when making face.

i think if the angle of the pull line is more arched on the hinge it is more leveraged than a pull line set to pull straight across hinge.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by NickfromWI
Butch, how do you come down when chunking? Spikes and flipline?

Yup. Mike, you're uncomfortable on your lanyard with a big saw?

Suspenders.

 

[Eagle1]

Spikes and a flipline as right. I always take out a wedge half way down your 10' spar and tie the rbl around and in the wedge. But, 10' is very big unless you are using a crane or have some kind of top tie thing going on.
I would love to see a pic of you 10' chuncking.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster
Yup. Mike, you're uncomfortable on your lanyard with a big saw?

Suspenders.

When you work a tree, I assume you first climb to the top and tie in. If your suspenders are so great, why not just work the whole tree with your lanyard?

I have trouble with the notion that suspenders replace a high TIP, sorry.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Mike Maas


I have trouble with the notion that suspenders replace a high TIP, sorry.

I agree completely. WTF?

When I am blocking down a snag, I have NO HIGH TIP.

WHAT high TIP??? I'm taking the freaking tree DOWN!

 

[BigJohn]

I have to agree with MB here. I cant stand to watch some guys tie all these crazy knots and clipping and unclipping and clipping it all takes too much time just so they come down 5 10 16 feet. Just step down its so little time. Its not that big a deal when using a RG to come down on. I don't see that as a big time waster. As far as it being easier being tied in above and working and makeing a notch tieing a block. To that I say you just need to get used to using a big saw and standing on hooks and walking around the tree doing what you need to do. I would think it would be easier to cut a climbing line makeing a notch with saw. I see in the Sherrill catalog that they have a picture of a woman tied in above and setting up to drop crotch a chunk. Hmmmm..... I wonder why they show a woman here? Man up and be a little more productive. Its a learning curve and being comfortable its easy when you do it all the time and get good at it. You need to develope a system and always be thinking what could I have done to get that done quicker.

I do agree with single point tie in to secure the log if it would barber chair. Lets not forget the techniques involved to prevent barber chair. There is no excuse for this, if this happens you did something wrong or the your groundy did. This just doesn't happen. Know the signs and how to prevent it when signs are present.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I removed a tree yesterday that had another tree next to it. After topping it out, I tied into the tree that was staying and worked the spar down with a high TIP. It was easy. A girl could have done it.
Doing a task in a manner that is easy, makes you smart, not girlish. Usually smart is faster too. At the very least, smart leaves you more energy for when you need to bust as$.
BigJohn self admittedly does not follow ANSI, he ties in once and that only if he feels like it. He brags about all the times he fell, and doesn't see the writing on the wall.
If he were following ANSI, he'd be tied in twice for cutting and he'd realize there is no extra time involved in the method being discussed. You just change the order of the steps in chunking down a spar.

 

[Lumberjack]

I always perfer being tied in above when working down a spar, it allows you to move around much better when making your notch. It isnt so much coming down as it is to make you able to swing around and cutting the notch. It is shown in the back of the 2003 Sherrill catalog.

I like having my butt, I hang my 044 and my 200T off my saddle when blocking down a spar without a problem. Thats 21 pounds of powerhead alone. No suspenders needed here!

 

[MasterBlaster]

So whats wrong with the picture I posted, Mike?

 

[Lumberjack]

Originally posted by BigJohn
I do agree with single point tie in to secure the log if it would barber chair. Lets not forget the techniques involved to prevent barber chair. There is no excuse for this, if this happens you did something wrong or the your groundy did. This just doesn't happen. Know the signs and how to prevent it when signs are present.

Thats what I have been wondering/thinking, but I didnt want to seem rude by my seemingly inexperanced opinion.

Last week I did 2 trees with 2 codomiant leaders. Working down the side when tied in to the opposite side was much faster than staying on my spikes and lanyard alone. If you were working down a large tree say over 3'6" or 4' it would say time, IMO, but on anything smaller than that unless there where some weird circumstances, it wouldnt say time to come down on a rope instead of just your lanyard and spikes.