Decay Detection

[derwoodii]

Sadly I never got to met Shigo. He was kinda my tree guru. I worked for the company that brought him and his learnings to OZ in the early 80ies. Then each of his visits down under after I was else where.
Schwarze was great, I had 5 days learned about 5% of his lesson, which translated to about 95% more than I did know. He and Claus Mattheck who is kinda the dark lord or Ozzie Osbourne of trees are both worthy to learn from.

 

[treevet]

Schwarze was great, I had 5 days learned about 5% of his lesson, which translated to about 95% more than I did know.

Shigo used to say "I will leave you still confused but you will be in a much higher level of confusion".

 

[Legit_Arborist]

I have used Picus often enough to be positive of its benefits. A good mallet is 1st best tool in your kit. But for analysis that can be seen and understood by your customer or lay persons the picus gives a good picture in color of a trees trunk section showing sound vs decay wood.

I absolutely agree with you. Sounding is a very good hands-on approach, especially since having advanced detection systems are both expensive and take time to set-up and use. When in the field...especially before a climb, it would be unrealistic to suggest using tomography and resistography to judge the safety of a tree.

I guess I'm just fascinated about it's implications toward research and how the imagery can substantiate observations made before actually cutting a tree down. They also help, if and when accurate, to convince a tree owner about the safety value of their tree to make the decision to remove it more reasonable.

 

[Legit_Arborist]

Man you all seem to have that guy in the red!

I don't really care. See, I can log off of this site and forget about all of you and enjoy my sleep. Jefflovstrum obviously has a personal issue with someone in his area and believes it to be me. So yes, apparently I'm the target. Jefflovstrum, you should move on, I have...you'll never know who I am so just accept that and go to bed.

 

[Legit_Arborist]

"Diagnosis and Prognosis of the Development of Wood Decay in Urban Trees", by Francis Schwarze is a good read (didn't say easy.....or cheap) if you really want to arm yourself with knowledge about this subject.

I own it and use it as reference.

 

[Legit_Arborist]

Stem failures account for <10% of tree failures, based on 2 very good studies. Yet stem wall thickness is an obsession among some assessors, who overlook roots and branches, and also overlook strength gain factors and mitigation options.

Confronting is cool if it's about opinions not personalities.

I'd buy a tomograph if i had the cash. I know lots of folks with resistographs.
Next assessment tool I buy will probably be a Shigometer.

That's a great factoid about stem failures. The California Tree Failure Report also has a great deal of tree failure statistics. Overlooking roots and branches is foolish and I am also aware that many stem failures are caused by decay from branch failures of wood decay fungi of roots as well.

So even though stem failures account for a smaller sample of tree failures, the decay detection devices available to measure internal decay are interesting. I've used the Fakopf device 2x by happenstance with the developer of the device and really enjoyed what it can do. I want to know if anyone in hear has ever used them and if they've found it to be beneficial.

 

[Legit_Arborist]

When a stem is decayed inside, but intact outside, a decay column which is small enough to be missed by sounding is causing a very insignificant strength loss in the stem. We can quantify that strength loss, at the price of invading the stem (or $$$ tomography). If the stem is decayed enough that strength loss is significant, it will be easily noticed by an experienced ear.

If a wound or canker allows us access to the decay, we can more easily quantify the strength loss with non invasive methods.

Most failures I've seen occur in bad branch unions, overly extended limbs, and root plate failures. I can only remember 2 times in my limited experience I've seen a column of decay in a main stem as the cause of failure. There are probably a few I'm not remembering.

That's why it's an "exaggerated" part of hazard assessment.

When it comes to dynamic rigging, that quantification becomes much more necessary, but you're already in the removal process and can invade the stem to quantify then anyway.

Are stoplights and street lights kept in the air by a solid metal pole? Why?

Great response. I can see your point on why you considerate "exaggerated."

 

[derwoodii]

I absolutely agree with you. Sounding is a very good hands-on approach, especially since having advanced detection systems are both expensive and take time to set-up and use. When in the field...especially before a climb, it would be unrealistic to suggest using tomography and resistography to judge the safety of a tree.

I guess I'm just fascinated about it's implications toward research and how the imagery can substantiate observations made before actually cutting a tree down. They also help, if and when accurate, to convince a tree owner about the safety value of their tree to make the decision to remove it more reasonable.

Picus as a pre climb hazard assessment tool unlikely, I never had a tree that gave cause, we sense a trees structure with eyes hands and feet.
I am about to field trial a Infra red camera, says it can highlite indicators of structure in a tree body language far better than your eyes. Pre trial sales pitch looks quite good, not super convincing but all these tools are worthy of a look n support as they are cutting edge enterprises trying to better our understanding.
Let you know in about a month.

 

[treevet]

Quite often you can do a pre climb hazard assessment and deem a tree unsafe to climb and if you aren't an armchair arborist (like you are) you have to go up there anyway .....or someone else will (and bye bye client).

Jeff Lovstrom is not the only one that dislikes your demeanor and attempts at condescension. NOBODY here thinks you are anything more than a noob (yet). You haven't said anything yet that struck me as anything more than average.

 

[treeseer]

Wow, someone more condescending than me? Glad to have you here!

"Decay, like rust, never sleeps."

Sorry Dave, as much as I love Neil Young and musical metaphor, decay does sleep--die?-- when it is walled off and denied oxygen.

I looked into the Fakopp from afar when writing the decay detection devices article for arborist news, but have no personal knowledge of its use.

A week with Schwarze...you lucky bastid!

ddh, thanks for paying attention to the trees!

 

[treevet]

Wow, someone more condescending than me? Glad to have you here!

didn't go that far Guy

 

[derwoodii]

"Decay, like rust, never sleeps."

A week with Schwarze...you lucky bastid!

Heres some light reading martial from Schwarze Mr fun-guy :monkey: Its heavy going, the pictures work better for me. Later today I try n post a few trees picus jobs. One that years later failed though its column wall (my fault) One that the test was spot on.
For further picus info.
http://www.enspec.com/

Off today, shoot a few tin cans then 1960 70 80ies road, dirt, trials & x bike show.

 

[Legit_Arborist]

Picus as a pre climb hazard assessment tool unlikely, I never had a tree that gave cause, we sense a trees structure with eyes hands and feet.
I am about to field trial a Infra red camera, says it can highlite indicators of structure in a tree body language far better than your eyes. Pre trial sales pitch looks quite good, not super convincing but all these tools are worthy of a look n support as they are cutting edge enterprises trying to better our understanding.
Let you know in about a month.

Let me know how that goes. That sounds very interesting.

 

[Legit_Arborist]

Quite often you can do a pre climb hazard assessment and deem a tree unsafe to climb and if you aren't an armchair arborist (like you are) you have to go up there anyway .....or someone else will (and bye bye client).

Jeff Lovstrom is not the only one that dislikes your demeanor and attempts at condescension. NOBODY here thinks you are anything more than a noob (yet). You haven't said anything yet that struck me as anything more than average.

Good thing I'm not looking for you to employ me then isn't it. I could really care less about your assessment of me. Thank you for the free personal evaluation though. Those are always so fun to receive.

 

[treeclimber101]

Decay Detection = look for fungus , cavities , and if climbing the tree use the tree very little for rigging and or tie in, cavemanish perhaps but it has worked so far, and a resistograph no can't justify it..

 

[treevet]

Decay Detection = look for fungus , cavities , and if climbing the tree use the tree very little for rigging and or tie in, cavemanish perhaps but it has worked so far, and a resistograph no can't justify it..

We are discussing how to detect the EXTENT of the cavity or fungal attack (delignified wood) so as to make a decision on "risk" of failure to target/s and whether or not to intervene someway if necessary by mitigation or eradication.

How do you do that 101?

 

[treeclimber101]

We are discussing how to detect the EXTENT of the cavity or fungal attack (delignified wood) so as to make a decision on "risk" of failure to target/s and whether or not to intervene someway if necessary by mitigation or eradication.

How do you do that 101?

Of what the tree , thats what I eradicate when a customer calls with a tree with considerable damage , I take no chances when it comes to safety of a tree , and when in doubt which there always is in decaying trees my first reaction and recommendation is removal, especially with all THE LEGIT ARBORISTS SWIMMING THE WATERS. Good luck in your quest to eradicate dacay . Maybe you an talk the owner into a ten yr. program of scribing out the decay ...., and filling the cavity with concrete, lol..

 

[treevet]

Always is in decaying trees my first reaction and recommendation is removal, especially with all THE LEGIT ARBORISTS SWIMMING THE WATERS.

:monkey:

 

[treeclimber101]

:monkey:

, you know what an expert witness is right , Oh Holy One

 

[derwoodii]

Let me know how that goes. That sounds very interesting.

Thermal IR of Trees. I had to cut down article to get it to attach. Only one pic, but it shows where concept is coming from.
Extract
As a result, cooler areas Blue appear at the surface that is associated with the altered or destroyed tissues below the surface. Warmer areas Yellow Red can be interpreted as being associated with healthy tissues and cooler areas can be interpreted as being associated with altered or destroyed tissues.