Decay Detection

[outofmytree]

Wow, someone more condescending than me? Glad to have you here!

didn't go that far Guy

You guys remind me of Jack Lemmon and Walter Mathau in Grumpy Old Men. Who gets Sophia Loren?

 

[treeseer]

Thanks derwoodii, interesting image, shows rot at crevices wiht included bark, right where it usually is. the rot could also have been assessed by excavation but that is dirtier work and not near as pretty. digging also a good bit cheaper. but has limits when decay is more extensive.

101, that is a beyootiful pic; shows a tree that has covered an infection so well that it may be stronger than it was before infection started, like a human bone adds extra tissue to be stronger.

your cya on recommending removal whenever you see rot is not defendable. no need to fear expert witnesses; it's truth that (usually) wins out, and you as a knowledgeable practitioner may be more of an expert than someone with more college than field experience.
o and i think vet was talking about eradicating the risk by eradicating the tree. however, rot like in that thermal image may indeeed be eradicated if excavated and exposed. in any case less fussin and fightin please.

oomt, Sophia can go with me; I'm less grumpy!

 

[treevet]

o and i think vet was talking about eradicating the risk by eradicating the tree. however, rot like in that thermal image may indeeed be eradicated if excavated and exposed.

was referring to eradicating the part of the tree with the fault if plausible....decay doesn't just occur in the main trunk you know

oomt, Sophia can go with me; I'm less grumpy!

I will defer to you sir and allow you to escort the 80 year old woman to your abode. Might be an opportunity for some decay detection procedure practice lol.

 

[tree md]

This thermal imaging is interesting to me.

I had a friend come down from IA a couple of years back. He is some kind of big wheel for the postal service. Not sure of his title but he is over maintenance in some capacity. Anyway, he was training at one of our large postal training facilities down here and stayed with me while he was in school (we're old hunting buddies and he also does tree work). He was telling me about the thermal imaging device he was training on. He said that you could scan mechanisms with it and see things like areas where bearings are wearing out and whatnot by the heat signature it put off. He said it is part of a preventative maintenance plan the postal service was implementing to try and save money by solving small mechanical problems before they become big ones. He said it is the way of the future. I never considered it could be applied to arborculture.

Interesting stuff.

 

[derwoodii]

This thermal imaging is interesting to me.

I had a friend come down from IA a couple of years back. He is some kind of big wheel for the postal service. Not sure of his title but he is over maintenance in some capacity. Anyway, he was training at one of our large postal training facilities down here and stayed with me while he was in school (we're old hunting buddies and he also does tree work). He was telling me about the thermal imaging device he was training on. He said that you could scan mechanisms with it and see things like areas where bearings are wearing out and whatnot by the heat signature it put off. He said it is part of a preventative maintenance plan the postal service was implementing to try and save money by solving small mechanical problems before they become big ones. He said it is the way of the future. I never considered it could be applied to arborculture.

Interesting stuff.

Yup the article is about 1+ meg so I cannot post it. It has many good pictures of about 3 - 4 interesting large test trees, before normal and then IR vision. If any want, PM me we can figure out how to pass on.
I,m pending use of gear by a company down here. They will look at a tree we have picus history and then we can look at the IR as compare.

Critics may scoff at this new fangle techno but I say, Thats what was said about fire and the wheel.
Yes you can see what IR shows with ya own eyes, but this is brand new so be patient.

 

[treeseer]

They will look at a tree we have picus history and then we can look at the IR as compare.

Critics may scoff at this new fangle techno but I say, Thats what was said about fire and the wheel.
Yes you can see what IR shows with ya own eyes, but this is brand new so be patient.

by golly there may be science going on here.

 

[treevet]

Yup the article is about 1+ meg so I cannot post it. It has many good pictures of about 3 - 4 interesting large test trees, before normal and then IR vision. If any want, PM me we can figure out how to pass on.
I,m pending use of gear by a company down here. They will look at a tree we have picus history and then we can look at the IR as compare.

Critics may scoff at this new fangle techno but I say, Thats what was said about fire and the wheel.
Yes you can see what IR shows with ya own eyes, but this is brand new so be patient.

All well and good.....we have identified a defect, quantified its volume and hopefully the species of pathogen....we have considered the environment and its effects on success of the primary pathogen or the sequence of pathogens......great.....and we have looked at the whole picture in making an educated decision as to how to react or not react at all....but

what are we going to do about the pathogen because as I mentioned before...fungi (live fungi Guy) like rust...never sleeps. The defect we have quantified is not going to remain the same as when quantified. Trichoderma may stall the invasion but how can it be replenished to be effective and I doubt very much if Guy's blowtorch is going to eradicate the problem.

Are we back to square one?

 

[treeseer]

...fungi (live fungi ) like rust...never sleeps. The defect we have quantified is not going to remain the same as when quantified.
Are we back to square one?

living rust sleeps, or creeps, or leaps, or dies.

shoot man who is counting?

i forgot--is this a hypothetical tree or real?

 

[tree md]

Guy is going to show up with a couple of heavy hitters and a blow torch and eradicate the problem... He's gonna get medieval with that fungi... :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[derwoodii]

Are we back to square one?

Yeah kinda but I say we are about square 1.2 we now know a wee bit more. Here's a subject I failed. A big old Poplar with a mechanical wound to base ? hmm lets check it out with picus. 5 years ago report said do A ,B,C & D and tree should be retainable. I did A.B & C and forgot about D the follow up retest. Dam thing could a killed some one.

I was looking at the wrong spot the decay had moved ?? upwards not traditional downwards. Claus t/r ratio says @32% sound I reckon had about 29% left and decay had broken out of the column.
So depending on your species the Codit may hold n seal for useful life span, clearly not so with Poplars.
Another story to tell, Codit is very good with many of our hard wood gums.

 

[treevet]

have bitten my lip long enough and nobody else is gonna say it but.........

"decay in trees is over rated" is hogwash. Also the person who compared a tree stem to a steel pole and said something like "why don't they make the poles solid?" Well.....try taking a chunk out of the hollow steel pole in a flex point from the wind and see if it doesn't fold right in that spot.

pls note next post

 

[treevet]

i Stem decay is an exaggerated aspect of tree risk assessment.

everybody afraid to challenge this generalization?

 

[pdqdl]

I think that the point being made with the street light analogy was that a hollow structure is adequately strong to do the job.

We have all seen hollow trees that were still standing with no signs of decline many years after decay had presented obvious signs of structural damage. Hence the conclusion that hidden stem decay is not generally as important an element of risk assessment as "obviously rotten, needing to come down".

Of course, I would love it if all my customers would call me to remove every tree that might have some hidden decay. I could buy me a new Detect-A-Rot Pro3000 (made in China), and go make a bunch of money condemning trees. I could get paid to remove trees that are not huge rotten risks, and then maybe get paid to plant replacements, too.

So far, there are no signs of that happening.

In fact, I have never been called to come evaluate a healthy looking tree for hidden decay, so detecting any hidden decay is a rather moot point. I often get asked to provide a recommendation for a tree close to a structure that may or may not already be compromised. So far, I have not felt any need for sophisticated equipment.

Personal story: My children's babysitter once asked me to look at her rather large hackberry tree, that had a sunken area in the lawn next to the trunk on the north side of the tree, and was showing some pretty obvious damage. Hackberry trees in this area are also notorious for stem failures. She was concerned that it was going to fall on the children while they were playing.

I advised her that there was no signs of dieback in the crown, that the tree was obviously thriving, and that in the absence of a big wind the tree would probably continue to thrive for another 15 years. I also advised her that the prevailing stormy winds were generally from the south, and that the tree was strongest on the south side, but that hackberry trees were notorious for breaking off in the wind. I suggested that she move the swingset, that there was probably little risk to any children, because they were not going to be playing under the tree in a big windstorm. My conclusion was something like "Sure, it will blow over in a big wind, but nothing was going to fall off the tree in fair weather".

She called me the very next week to clean up the blown over tree!

As I had predicted, it went over in exactly the direction and conditions that I had predicted, and it was a heck of a lot cheaper to pick up the pieces than to remove in a conventional manner.




BTW: the new Detect-A-Rot Pro3000 comes with the slogan of "Your new Detect-A-Rot will detect a lot of new business" (try saying this with your best Charlie Chan fake Chinese accent)

 

[tree md]

have bitten my lip long enough and nobody else is gonna say it but.........

"decay in trees is over rated" is hogwash. Also the person who compared a tree stem to a steel pole and said something like "why don't they make the poles solid?" Well.....try taking a chunk out of the hollow steel pole in a flex point from the wind and see if it doesn't fold right in that spot.

pls note next post

When I get called out to advise whether or not a decaying tree needs to come out I am always going to recommend removal when it is over the house. Yes, I have seen plenty of hollow trees that have done just fine but I have also seen a lot twist over and break off. I'm not going to tell someone who is asking my opinion that the tree is safe if it is rotting and leaning over their children's bedroom. I'm just not going to take a chance like that. I'd rather be wrong and remove the tree than be wrong, leave it and it fail.

 

[treeclimber101]

have bitten my lip long enough and nobody else is gonna say it but.........

"decay in trees is over rated" is hogwash. Also the person who compared a tree stem to a steel pole and said something like "why don't they make the poles solid?" Well.....try taking a chunk out of the hollow steel pole in a flex point from the wind and see if it doesn't fold right in that spot.

pls note next post

I agree with you .... Your still a tool though....

 

[Legit_Arborist]

have bitten my lip long enough and nobody else is gonna say it but.........

"decay in trees is over rated" is hogwash. Also the person who compared a tree stem to a steel pole and said something like "why don't they make the poles solid?" Well.....try taking a chunk out of the hollow steel pole in a flex point from the wind and see if it doesn't fold right in that spot.

pls note next post

Thank you. I agree. Wouldn't matter if I had said that. I don't perform the physical work so my comments don't carry any weight apparently.

 

[treevet]

I agree with you .... Your still a tool though....

yeah.....a jackhammer that's gonna break up that concrete inside your head one of these days

 

[treevet]

Thank you. I agree. Wouldn't matter if I had said that. I don't perform the physical work so my comments don't carry any weight apparently.

Hang around and keep at it and you will gain a little weight :newbie:

 

[treevet]

I think that the point being made with the street light analogy was that a hollow structure is adequately strong to do the job.

poor analogy.... trees develop cavities....hollow poles generally do not

We have all seen hollow trees that were still standing with no signs of decline many years after decay had presented obvious signs of structural damage. Hence the conclusion that hidden stem decay is not generally as important an element of risk assessment as "obviously rotten, needing to come down".

Again I don't see your analogy of structural weakness to physiological decline to then "obviously rotten,needing to come down" A tree can operate physiologically just fine despite substantial interior decay (unless significant storage cells are destroyed).

My point is when Wall 4 fails and the cylinder no longer is continuous then failure is more likely or even imminent. More often than not if there is significant interior decay there has been a wall 4 failure somewhere to facilitate the necessary conditions for the pathogens to thrive (air/moisture).

In fact, I have never been called to come evaluate a healthy looking tree for hidden decay, so detecting any hidden decay is a rather moot point. I often get asked to provide a recommendation for a tree close to a structure that may or may not already be compromised. So far, I have not felt any need for sophisticated equipment.

If a tree has a (risk or general) evaluation request from the client on it then you don't need to be "called" specifically to look for (hidden) decay. Part of the job.

I have perpetually felt a need for "sophisticated equipment" but getting the clients to finance it is the hurdle IMO. The next hurdle as I mentioned above....is it an end all diagnoses?.....no because decay is chronic.

 

[pdqdl]

Treevet, I'm not picking any argument with you, I was only justifying the analogy posted by another.

I believe the contention posited by ddhlakebound was that the strength of a tree with difficult to detect damage (wall thickness great enough to mask the damage from sounding) is not mitigated so greatly that it requires condemnation. I believe that his analogy to the strength of a hollow structure like a street light was on target, and is further supported by your own assertion regarding the consequences of removing a chunk from that same structure. Too much damage is both obvious to detect and obviously cause for alarm.

Perhaps I have erred in assuming that the fancy machines are for targeting hidden damage, which seemed to be ddhlakebound's take on this thread. I have always presumed that a big hole in a tree was pretty obvious, and didn't need much more evaluation.

My comments regarding physiological decline in conjuction with elevated risk of failure are based on my personal observations only. I don't think that I have ever encountered a tree that was shown by sounding to be defective and hazardous that did not also have some pretty obvious signs of failure all over the tree. Either it will have fungal growths erupting from the trunk, or prominent cavities higher in the tree, and most often shows crown dieback.

When the procession of disease exceeds the rate that the girth of the tree is increasing, the vigor of the tree declines, and it is obvious that it is time to go. Sounding invariably detects this advanced condition, as you are aware.

Given sufficiently adverse weather, even a perfectly healthy tree will blow over. No amount of currently available hazard assessment can quantify all the risks involving a potential tree failure, except only total removal. This is something that I am quite pleased to do for my customers, but usually only after I advise them that it is going to take a big wind to send it over.

Now if someone could develop a system that could accurately quantify wind loading, tree stem strength, and root ball stability, so that it could be stated that any given tree will blow over at X wind velocity, then I would support that all the way.

Until then, I'll keep my splitting axe ready to pound on the trees a bit before I cut into them.