Declining Butternut

[Nailsbeats]

When the piece will break the hinge and go sideways is when you want to use it. This can happen if you have a limb tip tied and the weight is going one direction and the pull to the rigging crotch is in another and you don't have the pulling power to stand it up and to the rig crotch in one shot. Make the direction of your notch in between the rig crotch and the direction of the weight of the limb. As you back cut the piece will follow the notch at first until you have cut enough off and the hinge begins to break as the pull to the rig crotch takes over. At this point the piece may want to peel down the side as it has been pulled sideways to your notch direction and the hinge has not fully let go. Make sense? The ideal situation is to have the pull you need right away, but ideal and tree work seldom go hand in hand.

There are probably other examples, but this is where I run into it the most.

 

[ddhlakebound]

To all who responded: I have never seen the need for that type of cut, although I understand the purpose. I suppose someday I will come across that problem. I don't think peeling down the side would ever be a problem unless the face cut was not deep enough or if the tree broke the hinge off sideways.

Comments?

I've had the bark tear out at the hinge, even when the face closed perfectly.

It was when removing a codominant lead on a hickory, cracked at the crotch leaning towards a house. I cut a 20-25 degree, 1/3 deep notch, put in the back cut, and the face closed perfectly.

It still peeled 18" down about an inch wide strip instead of breaking with the hinge. On a bigger lead it could have caused a problem.

Cutting the pins, or ears, or wing cuts will save you the trouble of worrying about it. On stuff that peels, spend the extra 3 seconds.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Cedar types are bad for the peel, I always cut ears on them.

If it is a big latteral that is being jumped, I will often cut ears.

Any time the piece may fail early and take a peel on a side

 

[pdqdl]

I must be living right; I don't think that has ever happened to me.

But I always cut to at least 50% face cut, unless there is a compelling reason not to.

 

[treemandan]

I've had the bark tear out at the hinge, even when the face closed perfectly.

It was when removing a codominant lead on a hickory, cracked at the crotch leaning towards a house. I cut a 20-25 degree, 1/3 deep notch, put in the back cut, and the face closed perfectly.

It still peeled 18" down about an inch wide strip instead of breaking with the hinge. On a bigger lead it could have caused a problem.

Cutting the pins, or ears, or wing cuts will save you the trouble of worrying about it. On stuff that peels, spend the extra 3 seconds.

So you know the song then?

 

[treemandan]

I must be living right; I don't think that has ever happened to me.

But I always cut to at least 50% face cut, unless there is a compelling reason not to.

**** did you say? Are you sure about that?

 

[treesandsurf]

Cedar types are bad for the peel, I always cut ears on them.

Excuse my naivete; are 'cutting ears' and 'cutting pins' the same? How deep is the cut usually made and about how far from the corners of the hinge?

jp

 

[JeffL]

Thank you all very much, got what I needed to know. The tree is definitely declining, not sure its due to canker, which I saw none of on the branches or twigs. No galls in the canopy, and no burls I could see on the trunk. I almost tend to believe its being badly girdled by a huge Ivy vine thats probably 4-5" in diameter wrapped around the trunk and growing probably 30' up into the tree. One of the lower limbs I'll be taking off is over some desired yew shrubs, so that will be getting lowered, but the other side is over a field and I'll just bomb that to the ground. Tree is probably 40-48" DBH at best guess, so I should be able to find some hefty wood to tie into without having to go too high up, since I"ll only be working the lower limbs.

Glad to know about the peeling. I know I've heard of peeling and having it suck your buckstrap down with it, and I'd rather like to avoid that if I can.

Thanks!

:greenchainsaw:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Excuse my naivete; are 'cutting ears' and 'cutting pins' the same? How deep is the cut usually made and about how far from the corners of the hinge?

jp

Same thing, different region.

Just a few rings in is good, and even with the apex of the hinge or just below.

Going too deep will compromise he holding wood.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Thank you all very much, got what I needed to know. The tree is definitely declining, not sure its due to canker, which I saw none of on the branches or twigs. No galls in the canopy, and no burls I could see on the trunk. I almost tend to believe its being badly girdled by a huge Ivy vine thats probably 4-5" in diameter wrapped around the trunk and growing probably 30' up into the tree. One of the lower limbs I'll be taking off is over some desired yew shrubs, so that will be getting lowered, but the other side is over a field and I'll just bomb that to the ground. Tree is probably 40-48" DBH at best guess, so I should be able to find some hefty wood to tie into without having to go too high up, since I"ll only be working the lower limbs.

Glad to know about the peeling. I know I've heard of peeling and having it suck your buckstrap down with it, and I'd rather like to avoid that if I can.

Thanks!

:greenchainsaw:

If you ever get sucked into the tree by your buckstrap or line you will gain a whole new respect for the possibility of peeling. I've done it on a 400 lb block and thought for sure I would be pissing blood when I got down. I have never had a problem with it and knew better before it happen, even got a second opinion before letting er go. No such luck though, never again. Take the extra time with the pins or ears for insurance on anything questionable or sizable. Happy cutting.

 

[pdqdl]

**** did you say? Are you sure about that?

Yep. That's how I do it, and it seems to work.

Quite frankly, I don't understand what good a face cut does if it is less deep than the vertical center of gravity for the tree/branch. [well, ok. to avoid barber chair, to give a semblance of a hinge, etc.] Cut past the vertical center of gravity (allowing for wind & other forces applied), the tree falls the direction you want it to go.

Don't cut past the vertical center of gravity and the tree must be lifted vertically in order to fall in the direction you are pointing it; this will cause it to have a tendency to go the wrong direction. Hence the popularity of using wedges for perfectly straight trees that would fall any direction you wanted, if only they were cut correctly.

Apparently, shallow face cuts pre-dispose the hinge to stripping the bark as well. Perhaps I am missing something. I am sure that there are lots of folks on-line here that will correct my misunderstanding. opcorn:

 

[oldirty]

if you take away any of the wood that you need to steer with you cant control the branch/stem. thats the way i look at it.

 

[treemandan]

if you take away any of the wood that you need to steer with you cant control the branch/stem. thats the way i look at it.

Steer? No moose dude what are YOU talking about?
But Yeah, oh how but yeah. That guy must have one set on to go into something 50 percent.
Like when? On the ground felling a pole or a whole tree? In the tree making a face cut before you tie it off? No, keep it a little more solid than that.
Every once in awhile I will make a notch that is way to deep. It just looks wrong and I feel better about things when I finish it off and hope no one was around with a camera.
He did make sense about more weight over the center but it is irrelavant.

 

[pdqdl]

if you take away any of the wood that you need to steer with you cant control the branch/stem. thats the way i look at it.

That is certainly true. But when you cut off the ears, you are shortening the length of your hinge, and making it weaker to any lateral forces. I am sure that's why JPS suggests only cutting a little bit.

Let's say you cut your face cut to only 40% of the log on a perfectly vertical section. When you make the back cut, the log settles on the bar of the chainsaw, and you must wedge or pull it to make it fall; 60% of the diameter of the log is on the wrong side of the hinge.

Let's change that: cut to 60% of the diameter of the log. Now, 60% of the diameter is un-supported, and tries desparately to go down to the center of the earth. It is only held up by the remaining 40% of the diameter. Make the back cut until it begins to fall. In this fashion, the hinge width is exactly the same for both cuts (at the 40% diameter point), but the deeper face cut is pulled over by gravity. Furthermore, as the back cut gets deeper, the tree begins to fall as soon as the remaining intact wood is too weak to keep it from falling. In this fashion the hinge remaining is always at the maximum thickness to counteract any lateral forces that may be applied.

Anybody out there read Beranek's "Fundamentals of Tree Work" ? If you disagree with my comments, go read it again, especially the section regarding face cuts.

I am sure there are a lot of good situations for "cutting the ears" as a matter of necessity, but I have either never been there, or I have not recognized it. I suspect that it is more a matter of preference than necessity as to how the cutter sets up the drop.

I do remember ONCE, a long time ago, getting dragged down by the buckstrap, and I swore that would never happen again. It was very unpleasant. I think, however, that it was the result of a split rather than a peel.

 

[pdqdl]

Steer? No moose dude what are YOU talking about?
But Yeah, oh how but yeah. That guy must have one set on to go into something 50 percent.
Like when? On the ground felling a pole or a whole tree? In the tree making a face cut before you tie it off? No, keep it a little more solid than that.
Every once in awhile I will make a notch that is way to deep. It just looks wrong and I feel better about things when I finish it off and hope no one was around with a camera.
He did make sense about more weight over the center but it is irrelavant.

By the way, I almose NEVER tie a tree off. I know where it is going when I make the cut. The only time I tie a tree off is when I have a head leaner, the tree is too complex for me to estimate the center of gravity, or if the prevailing winds are unfavorable. Frequently for weak trees that might break unpredictably.

The principles I described apply to little 6" horizontal branches way up in the tree: the principles are the same, the forces are just in different directions.

Spend more time making deep face cuts, and you will learn to like them. Some risk involved if you do it wrong, but less risk when done correctly. Isn't that true for every cut?

 

[treemandan]

That is certainly true. But when you cut off the ears, you are shortening the length of your hinge, and making it weaker to any lateral forces. I am sure that's why JPS suggests only cutting a little bit.

Let's say you cut your face cut to only 40% of the log on a perfectly vertical section. When you make the back cut, the log settles on the bar of the chainsaw, and you must wedge or pull it to make it fall; 60% of the diameter of the log is on the wrong side of the hinge.

Let's change that: cut to 60% of the diameter of the log. Now, 60% of the diameter is un-supported, and tries desparately to go down to the center of the earth. It is only held up by the remaining 40% of the diameter. Make the back cut until it begins to fall. In this fashion, the hinge width is exactly the same for both cuts (at the 40% diameter point), but the deeper face cut is pulled over by gravity. Furthermore, as the back cut gets deeper, the tree begins to fall as soon as the remaining intact wood is too weak to keep it from falling. In this fashion the hinge remaining is always at the maximum thickness to counteract any lateral forces that may be applied.

Anybody out there read Beranek's "Fundamentals of Tree Work" ? If you disagree with my comments, go read it again, especially the section regarding face cuts.

I am sure there are a lot of good situations for "cutting the ears" as a matter of necessity, but I have either never been there, or I have not recognized it. I suspect that it is more a matter of preference than necessity as to how the cutter sets up the drop.

I do remember ONCE, a long time ago, getting dragged down by the buckstrap, and I swore that would never happen again. It was very unpleasant. I think, however, that it was the result of a split rather than a peel.

well done my friend, you have just described the ONLY senrio where that big assed gap is practical. I too get lazy and don't feel like walking back to get the hammer and wedges.
In fact, I admit its a good thing to do then but I also admit that when I did it in front of the crane operator he said' you know you might want to leave a bigger hinge for control next time, sport"
do that crap in a stick and you might regret it real bad.

 

[oldirty]

tman. what the hell are you talking about?

youve never steered a branch while cutting on it?


pd, i shy away from deep face cuts (over half) because ,to me, this turns the cut into a snap cut. which can take your saw with the wood. ever see a saw tumble through the air still in the wood and land first, cushioning the woods landing?

and i feel like a hack without making a good looking face cut.

 

[pdqdl]

The hinge is NO less strong on the last 40% than it is on the first 40%. The hinge is the most strong at the maximum diameter of the trunk.

Why would the crane operator be telling the tree man how to make a cut? That makes as much sense as the tree man telling the crane operator how to lift the log. There should certainly be a dialog between the cutter and the crane as to how big & how the crane operator wants the wood to come away from the tree, but it should be the cutter's job alone to make it happen that way.

As far as a "big assed gap", I never indicated how wide the face cut was made, I just make them deep by habit. How wide the face is cut is a whole different conversation.

I have hired at least 4 climbers in the last 25 years with more than 10 years experience in tree work. They were all WAY better than me at climbing, but each of them had this same crazy notion about how to get a tree to fall in the desired direction: tie a rope to it! They all thought I was crazy using deeper face cuts, citing their experience, etc. Several times I was asked by the climber to take the saw from them to prove that a rope to pull the tree over was unnecessary. When they finally understood the physics involved, they continued to prefer that method.

Are you sure that you aren't cutting by habit, rather than reason? Why pull/wedge, when gravity is more predictable ? I am sure that you do excellent work, and you probably don't have any problems getting the job done.

Why let that keep you from learning some new tricks: that's why I inquired about "cutting the pins" in the start of this. In fact, I had never considered the risk of the hinge peeling on me, because I have never seen it happen. So I learned something new, and I am happy for the education. I am never so proud of my methods that I don't consider someone else's.

If you can give me good reason for NOT making deeper face cuts (on a normal, evenly balance tree), I'll be happy to learn about it.

 

[pdqdl]

tman. what the hell are you talking about?

youve never steered a branch while cutting on it?


pd, i shy away from deep face cuts (over half) because ,to me, this turns the cut into a snap cut. which can take your saw with the wood. ever see a saw tumble through the air still in the wood and land first, cushioning the woods landing?

and i feel like a hack without making a good looking face cut.

Oh yeah. Had my saw snatched a bunch of times. I figured out why it happened, and it don't happen no more.

I suspect that you are thinking I am talking about deep cuts on branches hanging on the sides of trees. Yes, snap cuts can snatch your saw if you finish them above the tension, rather than below it.

Horizontal branches (most likely to snatch your saw) don't really match the "cut past the vertical centerline" situation, because they are past that point before you start the saw. My comments really apply directly to vertical wood only. Perhaps I failed to specify that I am also cutting a wedge out of the face cut?

When I do plan to make a snap cut, I also make that face cut as deep as possible: the deeper the cut, the greater leverage the uncut portion has to hold the limb until the back cut can be made. Even when doing the back cut, the wood is less likely to separate unpredictably, trapping the saw, if the back cut is thin and the face cut is deep as possible. However: cut too deep on the compression side, and you pinch the saw. BIG BUMMER when you are up in a tree.

I use snap cuts a lot when I want the butt to fall first, or to make sure that the butt doesn't fall against the trunk on a trimming. And to repeat, yes, I have had the saw snatched away plenty of times. So often in fact, that I formed the habit of tying the thing up into the tree. But I got it figured out eventually.

 

[treemandan]

tman. what the hell are you talking about?

youve never steered a branch while cutting on it?


pd, i shy away from deep face cuts (over half) because ,to me, this turns the cut into a snap cut. which can take your saw with the wood. ever see a saw tumble through the air still in the wood and land first, cushioning the woods landing?

and i feel like a hack without making a good looking face cut.

Well the guy said he likes to make real deep notches and I said I didn't think that was good and then he said " what about when you have just a perfectly straight pole and are on the ground?" and then I said that that sounded OK and have done it but the crane operator said " NOt GOOD" ( but I didn't really care what he had to say anyway) and then made some joke about mooses again, now I am worried about you letting go of your saw.
Sure i steer the stuff. sometimes i change my mind in the middle and turn it the other way. Today I made a face cut, went halfway through the back,shut the saw off and went to lunch. Well actually just to toss a piece through the chipper before the piece I was cutting fell on it.
Why what did you think I was saying? Tmizz? No, not laughing very much but only cause its weak. It sounded good at first but it kinda fizzled. Maybe it will just have to grow on me.