Declining Butternut

[ddhlakebound]

The hinge is NO less strong on the last 40% than it is on the first 40%. The hinge is the most strong at the maximum diameter of the trunk.

If you can give me good reason for NOT making deeper face cuts (on a normal, evenly balance tree), I'll be happy to learn about it.

I'll take a shot at it, but I'll preface it by saying this....

My natural instinct is to also put the face in to near 50%. I'm trying to change my habits.

I agree that the hinge is strongest at 50%, it's widest point. The problem is, that's not the only factor we have to deal with.

With the face put in 33%, that leaves the strongest part of the tree directly behind the hinge. This helps protect us from the barber chair, because for the tree to chair, it's gotta have more pressure in the stem behind the hinge that it does at the hinge.

So at 50%, the hinge is the strongest point, but has a weaker point behind it which could raise the chance of the tree barber chairing.


Also, on bigger wood, moving the hinge forward or back will greatly affect the amount of lift you're able to acheive. A 33% hinge will allow you to lift much more easily than a 50% hinge, although you do have to lift it a bit farther.

 

[treemandan]

Oh yeah. Had my saw snatched a bunch of times. I figured out why it happened, and it don't happen no more.

I suspect that you are thinking I am talking about deep cuts on branches hanging on the sides of trees. Yes, snap cuts can snatch your saw if you finish them above the tension, rather than below it.

Horizontal branches (most likely to snatch your saw) don't really match the "cut past the vertical centerline" situation, because they are past that point before you start the saw. My comments really apply directly to vertical wood only. Perhaps I failed to specify that I am also cutting a wedge out of the face cut?

When I do plan to make a snap cut, I also make that face cut as deep as possible: the deeper the cut, the greater leverage the uncut portion has to hold the limb until the back cut can be made. Even when doing the back cut, the wood is less likely to separate unpredictably, trapping the saw, if the back cut is thin and the face cut is deep as possible. However: cut too deep on the compression side, and you pinch the saw. BIG BUMMER when you are up in a tree.

I use snap cuts a lot when I want the butt to fall first, or to make sure that the butt doesn't fall against the trunk on a trimming. And to repeat, yes, I have had the saw snatched away plenty of times. So often in fact, that I formed the habit of tying the thing up into the tree. But I got it figured out eventually.

Yes, I heard you loud and clear. The only time I use a snap cut is when I know my saw will be out of the cut before the wood starts to move.( I have sent saws out to.) I do not use it on horizontal or non- vertical limbs. I will use a jump cut in which the back cut is on your side of the under cut so it will not grab the saw.
I love a jump cut. The deeper the undercut the better the reaction. Now that i can get to 50 percent. I'll bet I can undercut 50 percent of a totally horizontal branch with out getting my saw stuck. Once or twice I went further. Who wants to test me?
By the way : whoever made and put that diagram of a three point cut out for all to see is an ####### and should be sued. You don't do that on big limbs, ever.

 

[ddhlakebound]

dbl post....

 

[oldirty]

Well the guy said he likes to make real deep notches and I said I didn't think that was good and then he said " what about when you have just a perfectly straight pole and are on the ground?" and then I said that that sounded OK and have done it but the crane operator said " NOt GOOD" ( but I didn't really care what he had to say anyway) and then made some joke about mooses again, now I am worried about you letting go of your saw.
Sure i steer the stuff. sometimes i change my mind in the middle and turn it the other way. Today I made a face cut, went halfway through the back,shut the saw off and went to lunch. Well actually just to toss a piece through the chipper before the piece I was cutting fell on it.
Why what did you think I was saying? Tmizz? No, not laughing very much but only cause its weak. It sounded good at first but it kinda fizzled. Maybe it will just have to grow on me.

tmizzle my nizzle... yes i lost a saw out the bucket one time on too deep off a face cut. (early in the career)

 

[pdqdl]

With the face put in 33%, that leaves the strongest part of the tree directly behind the hinge. This helps protect us from the barber chair, because for the tree to chair, it's gotta have more pressure in the stem behind the hinge that it does at the hinge.

So at 50%, the hinge is the strongest point, but has a weaker point behind it which could raise the chance of the tree barber chairing.


Also, on bigger wood, moving the hinge forward or back will greatly affect the amount of lift you're able to acheive. A 33% hinge will allow you to lift much more easily than a 50% hinge, although you do have to lift it a bit farther.

There is almost no risk whatsoever of barber chair with a deep face cut. The absolute greatest risk is from pulling a tree (or head leaner) and cutting it using only a back cut. Barber chair occurs when the pull to split the truck is greater than it's strength to stay together. The compression on the loaded side plus the tension on the opposite side add up to a shearing force that causes a split. Easily split wood flies apart destructively as soon as the split begins. The use of a hinge technique to send a tree (or branch) over removes some of the compression side, and puts it closer to the tension side.

If you put your hinge on the first 1/3rd of a balanced trunk, you must wedge or pull it over. Pulling can cause barber chair, especially if the face cut is shallow. Wedging on too thin a hinge can cause the hinge to separate before the tree falls in the right direction, with the tree falling catastrophically in the wrong direction. (By the way, the last 1/3rd is just as strong as the first 1/3rd.)

Regarding the amount of lift required: absolutely true, if you plan on needing a wedge. In fact, that sounds like it came straight from the book. However...If your face cut is deep enough, absolutely no lift is required to send it over, and the wedge is never needed.

Think of this as a barroom brawl: knock the feet out from under the tree, and it will fall the way you push it. If you just kick it in the shins, it will still put up a fight before it goes down.

I'll admit, I rarely use a wedge, and I have been impressed by the axemen scenes sending monster pines over. I suspect that they do it that way to maximise their lumber and to minimise the amount of time they spend sawing through monster tree trunks. I also noticed that they cut to just about exactly the middle of each tree. In the trees I get here in the midwest, that technique just wouldn't pan out as well as a nice deep face cut.

 

[treemandan]

By the way, I almose NEVER tie a tree off. I know where it is going when I make the cut. The only time I tie a tree off is when I have a head leaner, the tree is too complex for me to estimate the center of gravity, or if the prevailing winds are unfavorable. Frequently for weak trees that might break unpredictably.

The principles I described apply to little 6" horizontal branches way up in the tree: the principles are the same, the forces are just in different directions.

Spend more time making deep face cuts, and you will learn to like them. Some risk involved if you do it wrong, but less risk when done correctly. Isn't that true for every cut?

I almost never not tie a tree off. If something were to happen all I have to tell the ins. co." I don't know what happened, I had a rope in it."
To decipher my meaning- it just is a good thing to do cause just well it is. You do have rope, don't you?
I have a few trees in mind I would like you to not put a rope in.

 

[pdqdl]

Tman! you love a good pop cut ? Ream the bore, so that your saw doesn't get stuck, then take it all the way past 50% to finishing the cut from the bottom. No back cut at all.

BIG jump. Lots of fun.

 

[pdqdl]

I almost never not tie a tree off. If something were to happen all I have to tell the ins. co." I don't know what happened, I had a rope in it."
To decipher my meaning- it just is a good thing to do cause just well it is. You do have rope, don't you?
I have a few trees in mind I would like you to not put a rope in.

Got lots of 'em. I just don't like to waste time putting them in a tree if it's not needed. If I've been climbing in the tree, and I don't need the rope, why let the tree fall on the rope, risking damage when you saw up the trunk ? If there is a risk of making a bad cut, SURE, leave the rope in the tree and use it, too.

Of course you are right: there are a LOT of trees that need to be pulled over or wedged. Ever do any jacking? That comes in handy sometimes too.

I have a good related story here:

One of my expert climbers & I went to remove a huge dead oak in a back yard. Very few branches left, it was mostly just a standing trunk, with lots of room to just drop it. My climber rigged a rope about 30 feet up, then proceeded to cut the tree down. No wedge planned, just a straight cut on the face, and one on the back cut. He figured that 4 men pulling on the rope could send it over.

Guess again.

He made perfectly level cuts, fore & aft, and the tree naturally settled onto the saw, trapping it. Every man on the crew was pulling on the rope, and we couldn't get the tree to fall. I rigged the rope to another tree, put a couple of pioneer knots in the line to use as pulleys to increase our force to pull the tree over. 4 men hanging from the fixed line, not touching the ground at all, and we couldn't pull the tree over.

So you think, those idiots didn't cut all the trunk off, right? Nope. When we finally got the tree to fall (by getting another saw and cutting a deep wedge out of the face cut, and then pulling again), we discovered that the stump was cut off perfectly flat. No broken or uncut wood at all, the tree was just too heavy to be lifted off the stump.

I repeat: cut the lift out from under a tree, and it will always fall in the direction gravity is pulling it. Unless the wind is blowing.

 

[oldirty]

I repeat: cut the lift out from under a tree, and it will always fall in the direction gravity is pulling it. Unless the wind is blowing.

i get ya now. i will go deep on a fat trunk with no limbs on it, if it just the butt to help "undermine" the balance. the last crane i was on didnt have the biggest balls in the world so sometimes we'd just lay the butt piece over and pick it from there. it was easier on the machine that way.

 

[treemandan]

Tman! you love a good pop cut ? Ream the bore, so that your saw doesn't get stuck, then take it all the way past 50% to finishing the cut from the bottom. No back cut at all.

BIG jump. Lots of fun.

On didn't you just blow my mind! No back cut at all? Yeah you bore it real good. Its a little tougher with the low profile bar and chain on one of my saws.
You sound real good at dropping trees. The main thought that goes through my mind and makes me keep a rope in it a lot of times is calling Jack Bolger, my prick of an ins. guy. Stops my stupidity everytime.
A voice in my head always tells me " don't be a dope, get the rope- don't be a dope, get the rope- don't be a dope, get the rope". ALLRIGHT ALLRIGHT I'll get the freaking rope just shut up!

 

[treemandan]

Got lots of 'em. I just don't like to waste time putting them in a tree if it's not needed. If I've been climbing in the tree, and I don't need the rope, why let the tree fall on the rope, risking damage when you saw up the trunk ? If there is a risk of making a bad cut, SURE, leave the rope in the tree and use it, too.

Of course you are right: there are a LOT of trees that need to be pulled over or wedged. Ever do any jacking? That comes in handy sometimes too.

I have a good related story here:

One of my expert climbers & I went to remove a huge dead oak in a back yard. Very few branches left, it was mostly just a standing trunk, with lots of room to just drop it. My climber rigged a rope about 30 feet up, then proceeded to cut the tree down. No wedge planned, just a straight cut on the face, and one on the back cut. He figured that 4 men pulling on the rope could send it over.

Guess again.

He made perfectly level cuts, fore & aft, and the tree naturally settled onto the saw, trapping it. Every man on the crew was pulling on the rope, and we couldn't get the tree to fall. I rigged the rope to another tree, put a couple of pioneer knots in the line to use as pulleys to increase our force to pull the tree over. 4 men hanging from the fixed line, not touching the ground at all, and we couldn't pull the tree over.

So you think, those idiots didn't cut all the trunk off, right? Nope. When we finally got the tree to fall (by getting another saw and cutting a deep wedge out of the face cut, and then pulling again), we discovered that the stump was cut off perfectly flat. No broken or uncut wood at all, the tree was just too heavy to be lifted off the stump.

I repeat: cut the lift out from under a tree, and it will always fall in the direction gravity is pulling it. Unless the wind is blowing.

That happened to me a few times. The one They didn't listen to me when I said to put a come-a long on it. 5 guys on the rope and if it went back it would have sucked, real bad. I just made the backcut until in sat down on the saw and then said "SEE?" I just tied off my saw and watched the mad scramble to anchor the rope puller and the people in their cars who stopped to watch. It was tough for 5 to hold it, it got harder when one went to get the rope puller.
The other was when they didn't want to listen to me when I said" you can't stand directly under it and pull it, go out to the end of the rope".

 

[pdqdl]

Let's see if I did this right...

I found another, better thread on the depth of face cuts. It would seem that almost every aspect of the depth of face cut was evaluated for everything from giant redwoods to the thick stub-trunk.

For the most part, everybody was right, despite the widely different points of view. Funny how that turns out.

Here is where this thread should go: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=68559