Dent on Hinging

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Daniel, I`m not a logger as you would imagine someone that makes a living from it but I have been cutting,skidding and milling logs for several years.
I`ve been instructed by a logger who does logging accident investigations.
Trees are unpredictable, you can cut a hunderd of them without incident, the hundred and first will rip your head off and spit in your neck and you won`t even see it!
Felling trees is one of the leading killers in industry and for good reason.
With a slightly thicker hinge and steady tension from a rope or cable you can usually drop the tree where you must, the notch will close perfectly and the tree won`t leave the stump... now that`s pretty!
 
Yes, a thicker hinge gives more fibre, there by strength and numbers. Pulling the tree earlier than it would go itself, forcces it to be thicker.

A lot of times, even in logging, you can't just lay a tree down where it leans; but rather sideways to it. In fact, that would be a slower drop (something i haven't mentioned) for it is not feeding into gravity's pull directly, but fighting it, to the side. For, it only has so much force, any of that moving sideways, is not moving down, there fore is less than a direct hit. So even in rigging, if i use these principals, to swing a limb sideways into a rig, it doesn't sink as much, as the sidewards motion is not pressing down as hard on the line during the sweep, so less stretch, less drop!

The holding fiber, their posititoning across the face and fron to back, the stretch that imposes, is also mechanically correct.

i guess i'm used to being on the outer fringe in these things, i guess all of us in our own way with enough passion to be here, walks that fringe at some location, as we stretch and feel our way where not many look.

i've 'argued' hear previously; things of wheel spinning on axle, as a 2nd class lever, while a wheel and axle spinning as one is a first class lever; how making the tire bigger or axle smaller on a wheel barrel lends more Mechanical Advantage, pulleys as rolling levers, front gear set on 10speed as a 2nd class lever, but the rear set is 3rd class, but then broke the 3 classes into either 1st class lever (center pivot) or non 1st class etc. It took me almost 8mos. to convince others on ISA that a DdRT is a 2/1 if the climber lifts themself up by one line. i don't know everything, but ya might just let this one soak in a bit and play with it!:D

i use these things for every cut, each an informed decision, perhaps just to get a limb to pull from my side some more in the tree to be safer, hold the sweep of the limb against something that might push it off path, have more pull to one side as it drops straight-so has a tendency to roll/ rock one way than the other.

Every cut is a hinge, a decision to make or not a face cut, how fast the backcut, how the hinge releases, where the final pull is as it does etc. This scenario just brings you deeper into all that for a peek!

Even in a downed tree, i take out overhead 'widow makers', then other unnecesary stuff, leaving log, and support legs. i notch and backcut them, if the holding wood is cut in these shapes it still has these effects, as the hinge folds the leg. When lowering something that needs some length cut off, we notch it, backcut it (limb), scheduling the holding wood in the tiny hinge to do a certain task, then stand back and lower line, causing hinge to load,and fail/folde (as line slackens loading the hinged leg) as prescribed by the mechanical instruction it was given. Every phase......... :D
 
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The only way to get 2:1 MA with a rope is to pull the rope twice the length the object moves.
If you have a 100' limb. DdRT requires a 200' rope over and down. By the time you've pulled yourself up to the limb, you've pulled 200' of rope to go 100'. That is 2:1. It's that simple.

If you are being pulled from the ground, when you reach the limb, there is still 100' of rope between you and the puller. Thus the puller had to only pull 100' of rope to move you 100'= 1:1 or no MA.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
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Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder

It took me almost 8mos. to convince others on ISA that a DdRT is a 2/1 if the climber lifts themself up by one line. i don't know everything, but ya might just let this one soak in a bit and play with it!:D

KC: This statement isn't true. You held your guns through the bickering about the matter till the physics of why a climber has a 2:1 m.a. when they pull themselves up
a tree was resovled. It is true, a climber does have a 2:1 m.a. when they pull themselves up a tree, but the physics was worked out and for me, that's what convinced me it existed. Why challenge the m.a. argument to start? The work done to raise the load came from the load. I have never seen this in any explanation of m.a. where m.a. was being discussed. There was always the possiblity that some factor existed that showed it was not a traditional m.a. system, so the matter was explored.

I along with others I've noticed at this particular board admire your pursuit for efficiency and perfection with rigging. Your posts are enjoyable to read.

Joe

p.s. Sorry to get off topic
 
ooooooooo brutha Joeeee!

Y'all think i run the math around some! That i try to factor everything out..............; when in doubt, i ask Joe!
Hell, he even answers! and very well....

Well it was a while, and plain all the time (i think), though y'all had me humbly doubting myself a few times!;
but ya know i never mean anything neg., just giving basis,
for breathing with these models some.........

"The only way to get 2:1 MA with a rope is to pull the rope twice the length the object moves.
If you have a 100' limb. DdRT requires a 200' rope over and down. By the time you've pulled yourself up to the limb, you've pulled 200' of rope to go 100'. That is 2:1. It's that simple."

-murph

Is write, because the only way to get 2x Power (MA=Mechanical Advantage), is to input 2xDistance in any machine. Input Force (lift,push,pull etc.)x Input Distance = Output Force (lift,push,pull etc.) x Output Distance. For anything, any screw, lever, ramp, gearbox, 10 speed etc. You don't get a raise in power for nothing, you have to give up distance for it. There are only 2 factors here, 1 goes up, the other comes down the same amount period.

In a 3:1, you gain 3x power, but must pull 3x the rope. So, if you pull 50# for 15'; you can use a 3:1 to lift 150# for 5'. Each line on the load would pull your 50# of pull on the load for a total of 150#! But to lift it 1', you would have to pull 1' on each of the 3 lines to move the load up 1'. Notice 50# x 15' (input)= 750ftlbs. work units = 150# x 5'(output). That is the law of energy conservation, it will not be broken. Look for the input power /distance ratio and see how it is changed into work, it is all there.

If u turn a screw 10 inches of spiraling, and it is so finely threaded it goes in 1 inch it has 10x the tightening force you put into it(- friction), bigger screwdriver handle to smaller bit, even more travel of your hand, more power funneled into that smaller distance.

if you move a prybar 10 inches, and the output lifts 1 inch @10x your input force(-friction). For it is all exactly the same but diffrent!

4000# of tree top, 40 ' from hinge is 160,000'#s (foot pounds)of force on the hinge, before the weight of the log, or adjustment for speed!

So as the 100# climber climes a DdRT 20' up (s)he pulls 40' of line @ 50#pull and takes all that and funnels it into 20' of gain, the secret is, nothing is lost, even the theory of relativity has an equals sign in it, it all balances out, it is all accountable before we/me/you/us. In all things.

i think these things are very important in all tree werk, and are around everyone everyday; and that it is very powerful to learn them as a set of principals, not individual examples. For these things run thru all things, and there are too many examples!
 
In the early 80's I was improperly taught that a climber pulling himself up is not 2:1 because , the pulley has to be on the object being moved, otherwise it's just redirecting.
Anotherway to think of it is like this.
You have a log on ground.. tie rope to self.. through pulley attached to log.. and back to self. pulling on rope yields 2:1 MA.
Now stand log up and instead of pulling it to you, pull yourself up it. It's the same 2:1
Has anyone ever heard of any studies on the friction factor in natural crotches? Too bad Peter is gone...
God Bless,
Daniel
 
Tree Brothers,
Daniel in feeling great joy, with a report on hinges as per above thread and Dent & Spidy's diagram.
I was working with some small and medium Tulip and maple limbs today, to see how much side swing I could get with the "triangular hinge". I consider this fairly brittle wood. Just playing with it mostly, though there was a cut or two over a hedge. I was thrilled to see the superior control these hinges provide.
After pushing a nice size piece of tulip over by hand, a big smile from the ground support said it all without a word.
I Am looking foward to using this technique on bigger, stronger wood as well as felling. I see a new horizon.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
Thanks to this site, this thread and those that have contributed. I was able to safely bomb several important pieces today using the beefy tension side or triangle hinge that Dent and Spidy promote.
This is a powerful new technique which today saved me the trouble of lowering several big pieces out of a dead and quite hollow ash.
The wood up top was sound. The trunk was swaying quite a bit just from my wieght pulling up the rope. It probably would have held and I felt a lot safer with zero shock loads. I never would have tried hinging these pieces to swing away and safely bomb, if not for this thread. And it worked BEAUTIFULLY. It's all in the script.
God Bless All,
Daniel
PS Spidy I have found that for small wood, cutting all the way through the compression side, leaving the triangle hinge in the tension wood only, seems to work well. Those are preliminary results. I'll keep you posted
HEY.... DID WE LOOSE THE REST OF YOU???
 
yes have tried that in the branches.

The pix in Dent's book, show this man using his methodology in huge, massive trees, sometimes walking on those springboards to get over the root swell, printed in '74! So i have learned to use them confidentally. Even for a slight pull away from me in the tree, or maneuvering between the branches and down for clearer path in the air cuts. These principals are constantly running through my mind as i examine and plot what i'm doing.

But all this depends on the strength and flexability of the wood fibres, so please watch for decay etc.

Also, realize how decay can disturb pockets of hinging fibre, inspect your face, cuz you might end up doing this tecqunique when you don't intend to, because some rot let go on one side and the other side held on, or how a sloppy cut can put these principals into play inadvertantly at the wrong time!!!!

Glad your gittin' a feel for it bud, it is very powerful, pervasive strategy.
 
Yes you lost me.
At the start of this thread there were too many variables, so I suggested we talk just about hinge shape.
Then we agreed that a rectangle is strongest. That's where I lost you guys.
You say a rectangle is stronger but you can change the angle more with a triangle. Here's where I disagree. A weaker hinge can't do more work.
Triangle hinges have their place, but not as you guys are discribing, IMO.
 
Mike,
Thanks for your honesty. And though this technique "seems" to defy common sense at first, I Am telling you it works... really well.

So I appreciate your skepticism and SEEING IS BELIEVING. You just have to take to the field and try it. May I recommend starting with some light lower branches, hopefully that you can cut from the ground. Try hinging them over to swing to the side,with both types of hinge. See which one works better. And let us know your findings.
Looking foward to hearing back about it.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
Well, IMAO..........:D

i think a rectangle or 'strip' hinge has the capacity for more strength, because there are more fibres present at fail/folde.

Either hinge can be stronger by forcing more fibre to be present by pulling over earlier than it would have naturally fell. Just as more brakeforce can be had, but doesn't prove itself till it is challenged, for it is a passive force, in that it doesn't push, pull, or lift on its own; only when these forces are exerted on it, then the brake force is shown.

But, fewer fibres doing the same work (strip vs. triangle) makes those fibres work harder, placing these harder working fibres at the most leveraged position, can give great pull across the axis (of stump center) to control the opposite side's lean; ushering an eneven balance into the face squarely, by balancing the offside pull as the fibres fight back.

If you are hinging North, and have a northwest head balance, it isn't going East, so you can eliminate the fibres that keep it from going East, and put their numbers where the fibres keep it from going West. This will give some control just by shear numbers of fibres working. Scheduling these fibres to the back of the hinge, makes them stretch more; thereby they fight more, giving more pull to their side! Just like a tighter line pulls to it's side more, just fibre pulling!

i went over that book for years trying to figure out what the frickin'hell this guy was talking about; it is kinda an elusive concept at first. But it worx, and have put my own spin on the explanation, after bringing the principals into the air,and further observing it there; then distilling out and naming the common properties. For it can be practiced in felling, limbing and rigging.

Wide face cuts, that join squarely- not intersecting (cuts) can express this power to be witnessed over a wider range of motion.

Some of the trees in the book that are ushered to the ground with this methodology, look like they could be 6' in diameter at the hinge, for logging operations. Where they try not to hurt other trees, or the valuable lumber of the log with precise drops against diffent angles of pull. i beleive Mr. Dent is from a family of loggers, as well as a group of loggers from an age past; that had to use what was available for control of the largest living organisms to ever wander our earth. They only way to beat such odds; is to set the giant against itself sometimes, to flow with the nature of things. Kinda like martial arts for trees.

Is there really any gravity on Earth?
Or is the Earth such a zealous mother that she calls all back to her that she can?:rolleyes:
 
MM,
I tried the triangle hinge again yesterday on a long silver maple branch. This is not a strong wood fiber for hinging. I couldn't believe the amout of side swing before the hinge failed... really impressive.
So have you tried it yet.. how about anyone else? If not what is getting in your way?
God Bless,
Daniel
 
RB and all,
Do you use the triangle hinge for climbing cuts as well as felling? Any wisdom to share on climbing cuts would be appreciated.
Also do you remove some or all of the compression wood from hinges (leaving the triangle hinge primarily in the tension wood)?
That seems to work well on small stuff. I have yet to try it on anything big.
Thanks and God Bless,
Daniel
 
i use it on climbing all the time, wide part goes at top to fight gravity's downward pull; ushering over into hinge face. Cutting across steers it over, cutting down releases it to pull of gravity.

Must be carefull not to ask to much of this machine, as eliminating to much supportive fibre can make the machine shear (tear off before scheduled).

i couple this more supportive power with a wider sweep of open face, and a graduated self tightening action of the support line at the same time; all in concert with each other. Can be quite something to witness the whole orchestration of smooth ballet.

At a certain tightness per load, the line willnot let the load sink anymore so must arc around, as the arc keeps it at the same lenght of drop.

This is where i have been headed with this thread, pulling strategy(for hitch position), self tightening rig, self torquing rig, high friction and tight versus slack line sets; all in concert. Each adds something, that the others compound. It is the diffrence between something starting at 10:00 falling to 6:00 then ending up haning over the yard at 5:00; Or something starting at 10:00setting itself as it settles to 8:30, then the line is so tight the load can't sink anymore, so it drifts across the clock horizontally to 3:30 then settles at 5:00. That higher horizontal path clears more obstacles that are higher.
 
I've been cutting out hinge sections of felled trees and taking them home for study.
Earlier in this thread I asked if removing some or all of the compression side of a hinge would give better control by leaving more fiber on the tension side..and considerred side wedging in place of removed comp side of hinge..
Findings from above are that when felling 10-14" apple leads, against significant side lean.. using wedges.. the hinge with compression wood removed, did provide good hold against lean however removal of comp. wood allowed hinge to twist back.. thus throwing gun towards side lean. So more experiment is needed and for now I think on small wood it's OK to remove the comp wood.. and with anything that has enough force to twist hinge.. it's best to leave the hinge complete from side to side.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
i like to leave some on side of lean in most leveraged position to fight twisting, perhaps take some hinge out across hinge, so more is needed on control corner of hinge (at crossaxis of support for head lean, making this a first class lever).

In the tree with self tourquing rig twisting the limb, you want to leave a rib of hinge across the face to fight twisting or flipping over (unless that is what you want it to do). if you jus leave on spot or 'cylinder' of holding wood on face, spar can twist on it. Leave another spot along the rib of hinge fibre, and it can take leverage against the twist. The farther the 2 points are apart (and their reachess), the more leverage that the hinge has against twisting.

So, just as the opposite corner of hinge from head lean (pull)has greatest leverage of controlling that lean (wide part of triangle), ushering it into the face, the farther corner on hinge from that point, has greatest leverage against twisting on the wide part of the try-angle hinge fibre, esp. if it is about the only fibre left.

That is what i tried to illustrate with this pic. b4

This is another example of hinging that even if you don't use, you should try to understand a lil, so you don't accidentally cause these forces to werk at the wrong time, or watch someone else do 'em at the wrong time!

Partially what i taught myself the power of this hinging on was downed trees with limbs up in the air with some lean. i could triangle hinge'em this way and that where i wanted them, then practiced the triangle strategy on, bucking presurized, treapped limbs with it, then trunks without wedging (while down), then removals, then brought it up in the air. It is all exactly the same but diffrent! But i learned a lot and reinforced what i was reading with the limbs standing up on downed trees, and making them lay nicely, slowly, not tangled etc.
 
This budget priced book is a real jewel!

It shows how to form hinges specifically to different tasks and positions in felling and bucking; that can be carried into the tree freefalling and rigging all the same.

Many times have i gone back to it, and it's diagrams!

:alien:
 

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