Descenders vs prusik

[af7850]

Thanks for the response AF7850. You are the 2nd post that is suggesting using the Ddrt system to which i replied "I have no idea that that is or means". Can you elaborate.

DdRT stands for Dynamic Doubled Rope Technique. Basically this refers to a system where the rope is passed through the tree (doubled), and where the rope moves every time you move (dynamic).

Static Rope Technique (SRT), on the other hand, is where the rope is fixed to the tree and does not change position as you move.

If you plan on using a friction hitch to descend, you will want to use DdRT, because it places less stress on the hitch.

Surprised that my saddle can't "double up" as a bucket harness and lanyard, I I'm curious why.

Aside from testing and certification (ANSI Standards and such), think of the way your saddle works. The connection points are over or around the hips, anchoring the middle of your body in the front. If you take a spill, you will be caught by the front of your waist, and your back will take the force of the fall arrest. Ever watch professional wrestling and see someone get the "back breaker"?

Fall arrest harnesses, on the other hand, have an anchor point placed on the back by the shoulder blades. If you spill, you will be suspended vertically, and the harness will absorb the force of the fall arrest, distributing it over your back, hips and legs. The chance of injury is reduced dramatically.

I did look up the Blakes knot on Sherrills and did see that it did list concerns and such with slippage and the use of a stopper knot. I did have a prusik loop made by a tree rope company using the suggested smaller rope than my 1/2" climbing rope) not sure what size the pursik is but remembered the spec was very strong. I would think that a prusik loop would have been the safest choice and kinda puzzled why no one suggested using it to rappelling down. I'm assuming the fig 8 dec is used ONLY for descending and needs one hand to control decent rate whereas a prusik only descends when you want it to and if you let go it will stop you. This is why I would guess the prusik would be the safest for a beginner like me.

I would highly suggest using a friction hitch as your primary descent device. The Blakes is a very reliable hitch, and you will find that many arborists prefer it. A prusik does well, but has a higher likelihood of becoming looser during periods of low load (such as while working in the tree), therefore failing to properly grip the lifeline; this is one of the reasons some prefer the Blakes. Realize, though, that both of these hitches can be drawn very tight during periods of high load, making it damn difficult to descend.

I carry a Fig8 on my rig but would only use it as a last resort. IMHO it would be a mistake to use this as a primary means of extrication. You're right when you say that it makes sense to use a system which stops moving when you stop operating it.

Either way, it is very important to use your climbing system intensively at low altitude until you are intimately familiar with how it operates and feels.

Looking forward to seeing your truck.

 

[Fireaxman]

... I would like suggestions on best application for lowering myself from the bucket in case of emergency or 40' ladder while saddled in if it were to kick out.



...If I need to lower myself down can I get some suggestions or possible options. I alway have a rope with me.

Getting back to your original question, what size, what length, and what kind of rope do you presently own? Dynamic Rope Technique (DRT) is a good option, but it requires twice as much rope to reach the ground as Static Rope Technique (SRT) because you have to double the rope.

Size of rope is very important to SRT because certain mechanical descenders work only on certain size ropes. Petzl STOP and GrisGris, for instance, use a smaller rope than the commonly used 1/2" arborist ropes like Arbormaster Blue Streak. Petzle makes an I'd descender for the half inch ropes.

I am not very familiar with bucket truck work, but I would recomend SRT with a Petzl I'd to you for bucket escape. You would need to carry only half as much rope with you as you would need for DdRT and the I'd is the safest of the descenders for someone who doesn't use them much. It has a safe guard against releasing it too fast and a safe guard against putting it on the rope backwards (sounds silly, but easy to do with a GrisGris or STOP).

But, its expensive.

 

[Tree Raptor]

Frictions hitchs vs mechanical devices (cont'd)

DdRT stands for Dynamic Doubled Rope Technique.

If you plan on using a friction hitch to descend, you will want to use DdRT, because it places less stress on the hitch.

Fall arrest harnesses, on the other hand, have an anchor point placed on the back by the shoulder blades. If you spill, you will be suspended vertically, and the harness will absorb the force of the fall arrest, distributing it over your back, hips and legs. The chance of injury is reduced dramatically.


I would highly suggest using a friction hitch as your primary descent device. The Blakes is a very reliable hitch, and you will find that many arborists prefer it. A prusik does well, but has a higher likelihood of becoming looser during periods of low load (such as while working in the tree), therefore failing to properly grip the lifeline; this is one of the reasons some prefer the Blakes. Realize, though, that both of these hitches can be drawn very tight during periods of high load, making it damn difficult to descend.

I carry a Fig8 on my rig but would only use it as a last resort. IMHO it would be a mistake to use this as a primary means of extrication. You're right when you say that it makes sense to use a system which stops moving when you stop operating it.

Either way, it is very important to use your climbing system intensively at low altitude until you are intimately familiar with how it operates and feels.

Looking forward to seeing your truck.

AF7850, thanks for the info. Now that you set me straight on the bucket harness it is easy to see the difference. Problem resolved. I believe they said it came with a new bucket harness, now I will just have to find a real good rip stop lanyard or whatever is the best. I guess their is a host of different type lanyards out there, just have to see what is the best.

Will work on the blake hitch until it is second nature. Even thought I do have high quality 100 and 150 ropes (I believe over 7k) they have been used for lowering of limbs and logs and such (nothing real heavy) but I would guess that a climbing rope is a climbing rope and should not be used for anything other than that for safety sake so with that said I will pick up a new 150'er of the highest quality climbing rope that I can buy fined and use JUST as my climbing/emergency use.

I have read many types of ropes in various posts, what is considered the best regardless of price.

Interesing how you noted that the prusik under load can be drawn tight, as this is what happened to me in practicing just a little off the ground, it basically locked and I could not get it to slip enough to rappell. It was attached to just a single 1/2" line hanging down, not using the Ddrt system. Was impressed by the way it gripped but frustrated as to why it didn't rappel.

I also agree with you 110% that practicing as super low levels until I am completely proficient with the the whole technique.

bucket truck pics to be posted very soon.

 

[Tree Raptor]

mechanical descenders cont'd

Size of rope is very important to SRT because certain mechanical descenders work only on certain size ropes. Petzl STOP and GrisGris, for instance, use a smaller rope than the commonly used 1/2" arborist ropes like Arbormaster Blue Streak. Petzle makes an I'd descender for the half inch ropes.

The I'd is the safest of the descenders for someone who doesn't use them much. It has a safe guard against releasing it too fast and a safe guard against putting it on the rope backwards (sounds silly, but easy to do with a GrisGris or STOP).

But, its expensive.

damn interesting.... thanks. gotta check out the "Petzle I'd" just to see what it's all about... (on the net I mean)..

thanks Fireaxman

If you always do what you always did, you’ll always get what you always got….

 

[md_tree_dood]

what did you mean by the following statement: "just use the drt method and tie a blakes hitch in your rope" what is a drt method ?

it is double rope technic. use a single rope, throw it over a strong crotch atleast 3 inches thick of limbs. bring the one end to you and tie yourself in on your saddle(leave about 2 foot from your buntline knot to the end of the rope), tie a blakes hitch onto your running end and finish off the rest of the slack in the rope with a figure eight knot. do you know what i mean?

Do not use Ddrt do descend from the bucket unless you are using it in conjunction with a friction saver or some other method that lets the rope run without bending. Get a rope thats twice as long as you can reach in your bucket, ie 60 ft bucket, get a 120 rope. Descend the rope doubled over with a figure 8. This keeps the rope completely static which is in my opinion a much better option then creating friction which you're going to with a ddrt system.

Secondly, you can't fall off a rope, you can fall off a ladder. Think about that next time you're using one.

 

[blewgrass]

no offense, but it kinda seems like you need more help than a few pointers on a website. i feel like we all can tell you what and when to use certain methods and knots but without some solid hands on instruction from a person who truly knows what they're doing you're gonna be putting yourself in a dangerous position.

wouldn't use a prussik to rappel on. use a blakes or a taughtline in ddrt. use a prussik to back up your figure eight if you want, but use a static rope tie in. there are multiple ways to use a figure eight, but the easiest is to pull a bight up through the big hole and loop it over the little hole. clip the little hole to you with a carabiner.

just some hints, but i would highly suggest some proper training. good luck!

 

[af7850]

Do not use Ddrt do descend from the bucket unless you are using it in conjunction with a friction saver or some other method that lets the rope run without bending. Get a rope thats twice as long as you can reach in your bucket, ie 60 ft bucket, get a 120 rope. Descend the rope doubled over with a figure 8. This keeps the rope completely static which is in my opinion a much better option then creating friction which you're going to with a ddrt system.

I would suggest tying in through a 4" pulley which is rated for climbing use. This will virtually eliminate friction, while also providing an acceptable bend diameter.

As a beginning climber, learning DdRT will give you the ability to escape the bucket, while also giving you a superior alternative to ladder work. The same system can be used in both applications, allowing you to learn it faster. SRT is great to learn, but I feel that it has some considerable limitations which make it ineffective in certain situations.

Learn DdRT first and you will have a very versatile tool.

 

[md_tree_dood]

I would suggest tying in through a 4" pulley which is rated for climbing use. This will virtually eliminate friction, while also providing an acceptable bend diameter.

As a beginning climber, learning DdRT will give you the ability to escape the bucket, while also giving you a superior alternative to ladder work. The same system can be used in both applications, allowing you to learn it faster. SRT is great to learn, but I feel that it has some considerable limitations which make it ineffective in certain situations.

Learn DdRT first and you will have a very versatile tool.

Good point.

 

[TreeTopKid]

I thought ladders were for window cleaners?

 

[ntsarborist]

Will work on the blake hitch until it is second nature.

it wont take long at all to learn how to tie a blakes hitch and know how to use it. for your stopper knot just tie a figure eight on the end. watch the you dont tie your blakes hitch wrong or you could be going for a ride.

 

[Fireaxman]

I think that ladders are great for access....but horrible and deadly as a cutting platform.

+1, and I hardly learn anything the easy way. I had 3 real dangerous near misses before I convinced myself I had to learn to climb with ropes. To borrow an analogy from an old country western song, cut branches hunt the butt of a ladder like "... A Texas Twister hunts Trailer Parks".

That said, I think it was Treeseer that once reminded me not to throw the ladders away. Like woodchux said, they can be very useful for access only. Most recently I used one to inspect cabling in one of those old, low, widely spreading Live Oaks. There were no TIP's available above the cables without rigging some serious traverses, and the branches were low enough and big enough that the ladder was "... great for access" (and access only).

When the looking was over and the work started, I was On Rope.

 

[The Lawn Shark]

Have your third party climber show you what drt and a blakes hitch is, Should only take him a couple minutes.

 

[Tree Raptor]

pics of my new bucket truck (well, new to me...)

first time for adding pics so not sure if I did it write. Went to pc and did upload the 3 pics but not sure if they made it here successfully. If not will try again.

 

[Tree Raptor]

follow up to bucket pics...

Well see that the pics made it but noticed in my haste that I spelled write wrong.... anyhow now I know how to add pics.

2002 GMC 7500
extended 13' chip box
3126 Cat diesel (246hp)
just turned 36,000 miles
air brakes
a/c
stereo
7 speed Spicer tranny
65' Altec bucket LRV
and most importantly, new harness and lanyard....

Now I have to start looking for some "bucket" accessories....
on another good note a climber that is local to my area has offered to show me the "ropes" on some basic climbing and such. Realling looking forward to it...

 

[woodchux]

Nice truck man !