Descending out of tree

[RedlineIt]

Some one's gotta say it:

You don't rap out on a rigging rope.

You don't pull trees over with your climbing line.

Forum title is Arborist 101 after all.



RedlineIt

 

[(WLL)]

rope guide works great i dont rap out on a lowering line but if i did i would use a munter hitch on the pull line and try 2 stay awake:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[lorax]

Why did you tie off the rope? Are you felling it with the rope you left in it? How will you get it out if you tie it off and come down on a single rope?

 

[Tree Machine]

Ideally, you set your rigging rope toward the felling side, your climbing line the opposite side, rappel out, pull tree over. Climbing line is on top of the fallen tree.

I just got a Black Diamond ATC Guide. Anyone seen these yet. I just descended on one for the first time yesterday. You can get em at sporting goods stores where they sell Black Diamond climbing gear. I did 1:1 DRT and SRT and 2:1 DRT using the guide in place of a friction hitch. This piece is super-noob friendly, though for 11 mm only. Even the slightly larger diameter Fly I had to stuff in there. 13 mm? Fogitaboutit.

 

[woodchux]

I've got one of those black diamond atc-xp guides. Never used it yet though. Ordered a biner or something and got the atc-xp instead.

 

[changetires]

When you try that out be sure to give some feedback on this little gizmo.

Ed

 

[Tree Machine]

ATC XP Guide details

I'll share some more, but don't assume it as an endorsement. As said many, many times in this forum, a climber needs to climb on what he is comfortable with. Moving from a Blake's to a Distal is a big jump for a lot of guys. Moving to this device would be like moving to a different planet.

ATC stands for Air Traffic Controller, a term coined by Black Diamond severel decades ago. The classic ATC has been around so long that it rules the class of belay devices known as tube devices, so much that other tube devices are referred to as 'ATC-esque' depending on how similar they are to the original. It's a rock climbing thing, so if you haven't heard of these, just know this class of belay devices has been around since the advent of technical climbing, longer than I've been alive. They are, in my opinion, the simplest of all belay / rappel devices.

Storrick has a whole section of his climbing devices website dedicated to tube devices. Here is the section where he covers the the ATC, the ATC XP and the ATC XP Guide. He describes the nitty gritty on these, in far greater detail than I can. I've climbed on, and currently own all three, but I can only talk about them from a tree climber's standpoint.

My ATC is buried in my caving kit, doesn't have use in the trees. The ATC XP is a better device for tree climbers, but still has limitations. The ATC XP Guide is the same as the ATC XP, more streamlined and with a bell and a whistle added while still keeping the weight ultra, ultra light.

I only climbed on the Guide for the second time yesterday afternoon, this time on 11 mm Velocity. It's very similar to the ATC XP, which I've climbed on solid for a few months. The Guide handles more like a friction hitch than anything else I've tried and can be used in place of a hitch if you so have the inclination. The real strength of this device is that it enables you to handle friction 1:1, all your friction comes from right there at your device, so it's a very predictable and reliable friction. It has the 'hands off, it'll hold you' thing that friction hitch guys like, but without the friction at the tie-in point that, without a friction saver, is a little different every time. It tends well and yesterday it got a delux tour of a big black locust, limb walking way out to rig the tips of every limb. I was very impressed with how smooth it allowed me feed with just a fingertip touch.

Doubled rope 2:1, doubled 1:1 or SRT, this device does all that right out of the box. The versatility aligns well with new school climbers, but how similarly it can step in to a 2:1 friction hitch position may interest a few trad guys to give it a whack. It would take a seasoned hitch climber some getting used to, but a noob would warm up to it almost immediately. It's exceedingly simple to use, secure, intuitive, really hard to mess up on, and quicker to apply than a friction hitch. It does not twist the rope in use. Requires a triple locking biner to attach it to your saddle.

Hope this helps some.

 

[simpletreeman]

atc

this might be a dumb question but how do you soft/hardlock the atc device? Thanks

 

[Tree Machine]

Depends. Which ATC?

 

[Tree Machine]

And I have to say, that's not a dumb question. That is THE question. It is the focal point around which all motions revolve while aloft using simple devices.


The fact that YOU asked it makes you the smartest guy out there, Simple Man.


This is the hard part. I have probably done 50 different variations of soft lock / hard lock, so, which one to share?


How about more on what soft lock does. Soft lock allows you to belay yourself with forefinger and thumb, or with the light pressure of your feet to control descent with total control.

Hard lock is just that. You are in hang mode.

Soft lock allows the rope to pass through the device, but with the slightest of tensioning on the belay hand, you stop. You should be able to pinch the rope between your thighs and stop yourself. This is soft lock. You pretty much live in soft lock while moving about, unless you are just using your hand as belay. That's all there is. Hand-belay, soft lock, hard lock.

How to? Your hand pressure is creating manual control. To engage a hands-free soft lock you would simply pass the rope through a small biner elsewhere on your saddle, after the rope passes throughh the device. Think about this. If the rope only needs enough extra friction to equal your forefinger and thumb, or thighs; that's not much. Just a clip through a biner to re-route it is often enough to enact soft lock. It DOES depend on the device.

This sounds too easy to be true, doesn't it?

 

[simpletreeman]

atc locking

I appreciate the quick response. I was browsing the Black Diamond website last night and the piece I had in mind was the atc-guide. I downloaded the instructional .pdf but it didn't show me everything I feel needs to be known about the device to use it while tree climbing.


So how about the hardlock?

Would it work to use that same biner you mentioned with the softlock except instead of using it to redirect the rope you create a loop using perhaps a butterfly knot to stick inside of it?

 

[Fumbler]

One of the reason I went with an 8 over an ATC when I bought my equipment was because it wasn't obvious to me how to hard lock the ATC.

I'm considering an ATC Guide and am also curous how you hard lock it.

 

[simpletreeman]

like Tree Machine mentioned a few posts up, there are probably half a million ways to hard or softlock the device. I would just like to familiarize myself with a few easy ones before i get myself too high in a tree. TM, if you can spare the time would you be willing to put up a picture illustrating some of your techniques for using the atc devices? And just to clarify I'm looking for srt and/or dbrt. You know, the nontraditional stuff.



Thanks

 

[Tree Machine]

I would be more than happy. The ATC Guide is a very good piece, not designed for tree care / work positioning, but it's versatile enough that with a little improvisation, it could be your main device.

At around 25 bucks, easily affordable. All it does is insure a bight in the rope and adds just enough friction at the exit end. Through the bight runs a triple lock biner (I prefer a 50 Kn steel triple lock).

The key to a hardlock is to create a second bight after the rope exits the piece, not a knot. That just takes unnecessary extra time and bulk and whatever you do, you have to un-do. At 50 or a hundred times a day, you really want to streamline this or you'll spend a lot of time futzing with your knots.

As far as that second bight, it's actually simpler than that; OK, the rope comes down from the tie-in point passes through the device on the way down, around the triplelock to create the bight and back up through the device. The rope, in accordance with gravity, then goes back downward, creating a sort-of second bightYour hand then controls friction by pulling down. This creates a firm second bight. To create a hard lock you simply use a second biner to position the standing end of the rope to your saddle, keeping the second tight bight in place.

I use a small, aluminum non-locker for the replacement of your hand as this is your quick-on, quick-off. MOST of the time you'll control the rope with your hand. When you need to be fully hands-free you just replace your belay hand with a biner to secure the out-going rope in a fixed position. Hard lock.

Please pardon the bad art.

 

[Tree Machine]

As far as SRT or DbRT, the technique is identical. In SRT you're feeding ONE rope through the device, for DbRT, two.

In our familiar DdRT (2:1 traditional) the device can sub in for a friction hitch.
This means this device can go all three ways. That's why I like it, that and it's really fail-proof, doesn't wear out, is light, inexpensive, easy to master, safe for noobies, however it does NOT DO 13 mm rope. I'm using the FLY at the moment (~12 mm) and I really have to stuff it in there, but this is a very good start- it adds a little extra friction in use.

If you go to a real 11 mm, the whole thing will run smoother, with a little less friction.

 

[Fumbler]

Thanks, that was real informative.

I guess I'll hold off on getting one, I climb on 1/2 Arborplex (which may actually be a tiny bit bigger than 13mm).

TreeMachine, how do you like the Fly compared to other climbing line?

 

[Tree Machine]

The Fly? I'm not crazy about it, but at the same time I think it is an exceptional rope. I prefer firmer, more static ropes, but honestly, that is a personal preference. I don't like any bounce. Your preferences should come from your experience using them.

The Fly is OK in the ATC Guide. Like said earlier, you have to stuff it in, and that takes a little more effort and a wee bit more time, but the friction is different than a smaller diameter rope like Vector or Velocity or KMIII. The friction is greater and it is a mushier rope and flattens a bit as it bends around the biner, increasing friction. On descent this is OK, but if you climb up past your piece a few limbs and then have to pull slack through to regain your tension, it's a bit more work than the true 11 mm's.

I enjoy exploring the minor nuances and differences between ropes. Sometimes it takes a lot of trials of different ropes and pieces under different conditions to really understand what works better than another.

 

[SRT-Tech]

1/2" Arborplex fits great in the ATC....after it (arborplex) is broken in on a few climbs and flattens slightly.

 

[Tree Machine]

Which ATC? Are you talking about the one we're talking about?

The ATC Guide is rated to 10.5 mm, though 11 mm fits perfect. Fly not so perfect. Arborplex, I don't know how you could make that work in a Guide. I tried New England Hi Vee (13 mm) and no way.

Now the regular old ATC, maybe, but that lacks the minor features that make it a good device in the trees. The old ATC works so much like a friction saver ring that you might as well use the ring. Don't take this as a recommendation from me, though. Although a friction saver ring is the simplest of all descent devices, you can not let go of the rope without expecting to drop like a rock. Soft lock is finicky. Not bad if you're just coming down (abseil) but we move around, stop and go, here, there, everywhere and work positioning that requires precision adjustment.

The Guide has two friction modes, depending on which direction you run the rope through. It's nice to have this versatility. Here's an image off the directions that shows what is meant by this:

 

[Tree Machine]

The HFM (high friction mode) just means the outgoing rope passes through a V-shaped channel with cleats (Is that the right word) or 'ribs' is maybe a better word. This little feature just makes controlling friction so sweet.

The frustrating part here is it takes so long to describe this stuff. Showing it in demo, I could cover just about everything you need to know in under a minute. The device is that straight-forward.

Another difference in handling the rope, in contrast to using a friction hitch, is that you handle the rope lower, down near your saddle whereas the friction hitch system you handle more 'up' where the hitch is.

I enjoy coming down using my feet to control the rope. The amount of pressure needed is so light that touching the rope between your toes will stop you. Like said earlier, you should be able to control descent with an index finger and thumb.

I like the control, say, when flying a stem-to-stem span, or pulling yourself across with a second rope and both hands are occupied, or say your hands are on the far stem, but the rest of your body is still out in space, the ATC Guide allows you to 'feed' rope through the device simply by manipulating the rope with your feet.

If you do big limb to limb traverses (monster oaks and other really big trees, or going from one tree to another), you really need both hands on the ascendered rope you're pulling. The rope behind you needs to be on the outfeed, more or less equally to the infeed of the rope in front of you. If both hands are in front, you can squeeze the back rope between your thighs or lace it over a leg in some fashion that you can advance the descender while you advance the ascender. This way you travel across rather level, rather than doing a slow pendulim down, and than ascending straight up.

It's much easier to do than to write.