Do ants make trees unsafe?

[Nickrosis]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
I've heard that carpeneter ants in particular secrete an acidic "sweat" that dissolves the cellulose. but I never checked to see if that was true.

According to Nathan's link, they don't eat it at all....they mine it out.

Termites do the eating.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by underwor
I would guess that the foam in the pruner pole is similar to the core of 16 strand rope, there to keep it from deforming to the point of cracking, but adding minimal strength.

Do you have the link to the thread someone posted on the strength of a hollow tree? I think that if we compared those results to both hollow and well rotted trees, we would find very similar results.

Bob

That is kinda how i see it; then there is this thing if the inside and outisde componenets scrubbing against each other cause enough friction to weaken. By maintaing the shape, not so much strengthening, the equivalent leveraged support of the circle is maintained. Violate that shape to a smaller diameter, then less leveraged support at all points. Kinda just miss-shape it, and some axisses would have more leveraged support than others. All determined by the distance beteween compression and tension, everything else equal.

The outer perimiter will try to carry the load at flex, it is the widest distance apart, so Nature will use this maximum to be the easiest way to carry the load. Nature of things, will always be to take the easy way. As 1 extreme loaded side compresses and the exact opposite tensions. So the points of compression and tension will be on the outside perimiter.

The farthest reach of this tension, the most leveraged positions, will be the most active part. Wound wood, would occupy this region, seeing as we don't replace wood. So that the ~40% stronger and more elastic wound wood would also add more strength occupying the most leveraged positions, always closing over, to the outside perimiter.

Accept for a moment, the charricature of the tree as the largest life ever, needing more food, space, strength than anything else; and being the shrewdest to pull it off in a system always looking to thin to maximum. If the tree needed the inside strength, more than the outside; would it not have evolved over millions of years as the largest ever, to replace interior wood?

Or, something like that,
:alien:

 

[a_lopa]

Originally posted by aussie_lopa
whats your take guy or are we sitting on the fence as usual

still waiting? or do i start a ''do ants make trees safer'' its like saying smokings ok! its cancer that kills you.......Dereks area has ALOT of ants,i suspect there no where near as big a issue in US than here, were there still not really an issuei wont work in certain areas climbing due to meat eating ants better things to do,if the ants dont get ya the snakes on the way in will.so i guess the meat eating ants make the tree unsafe because you cant fine prune,or crown reduce :angel:

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by aussie_lopa
still waiting? lopa I got right back to you on that: "I answered #3, and I wonder if those who have seen trees fail at defects where ants resided really know whether the ants caused the defect. Maybe they were just innocent residents.

Answer #4 was for you, lopa, I'm still waiting to find out what kind of vicious those Aussie ants are."
they're no where near as big a issue in US than here, were there still not really an issue

So if they're not really an issue, they don't make trees unsafe. Right? Thanks to you and Derek for the pics and the words on the meat-eaters. Even tho they might make tree-climbing unsafe, we're hearing you say that Aussie ants don't make trees unsafe.

If they did, I'd like to know about them before two of them hitchike their way to NC. That's why I started this thread, and to see if there was substance behind the Yes responses. Still not seeing much.

 

[jimmyq]

I am headed to this ( http://www.pnwisa.org/TFRP04.pdf ) today, I will ask around about the ants and see what opinions are around hereabouts.

 

[treeman45246]

Originally posted by underwor


Bob [/B]

The only way i think they may aid spread of structural loss is if they create galleries outside of the CODIT area and thus allow fungal diseases to spread.

This would be why I voted yes on this poll. Shigos readings indicate that ants will not cross this boundary, and I have heard it argued before between tree professionals, but from what I have observed, carpenter ants will occasionally break CODIT walls, thus allowing fungal pathogens to spread. While most of the nests I have dissected stay within the confines of the decay column, I have also traced out galleries which break wall 2.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Finally someone gives a clear and viable reason for a Yes!

:angel:

#3's still a better answer, but thanks for thinking aobut it. Beats sarcastic smilies any day.

 

[pmuscato]

Ants are a beneficial insect. I like em covered in chocolate, yummy. I picked #3 also like the smart people.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by aussie_lopa
them pictures i pasted come from the csiro the aust goverment scientific dept,they were pictures of what ants can do,not fungal decay.

I searched CSIRO and found nothing about ants making trees unsafe. What did I miss? Help!There were many references to ants protecting tree crops.

Yes there are termites down there; not many are bad pests like the Formosan. For the bad ones, "Control of pest termites involves identifying the species, locating the nest and choosing appropriate eradication methods." CSIRO does not say tree removal is appropriate.

Out of the 11 "Yes" responses to this poll, only one gave some observations, about carpenter ants in cherries. How much carpenter ants bother trees is unclear. No one has given us any reason to believe that any other ants do any harm, in Australia or Mars or anywhere.

Poll's over, and so too I hope is the fearmongering over ants in trees.

 

[jimmyq]

Doin some readin this AM, saw this and figured it was worth quoting.
"Myth 84. ANTS SPEED UP THE DECAY PROCESS.
Ants keep their galleries very clean and in doing so they slow the decay process (A-96). Ants live in the tree and eat elsewhere. Termites “eat” in the tree and live elsewhere. (Some tropical termites live in nests on tree branches, but they still live outside the tree.) Ants and termites follow the CODIT patterns in living trees. Termites continue to follow the patterns for long periods even after the tree is cut (A::95, M-154). "
100 Tree Myths, Shigo.

 

[a_lopa]

the poll still indicates there bad ive still got trunk swell up my sleave

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by aussie_lopa
ive still got trunk swell up my sleave

Maybe you should see a doctor about that; or is that some kind of pickup line?.

In a tree, trunk swell is caused by decay, not ants. Or is Myth #84 really a reality?

Evidence talks, opinion walks.

 

[matthias]

Originally posted by Guy Meilleur
In a tree, trunk swell is caused by decay, not ants.

Do you mean like this?

 

[Derek]

FIVE pages on ants and the poll is closed?...

Sorry things are flat out (and no staff) at the moment, havent had a chance to write a couple of pages on "are ants bad for trees"..I was sorta hopeing to have some pics back by now on MY ants, and the increadible damage they can do, see for yourselves
....In a couple of days..Derek..

PS
That "save the sheep" tree on the fence job I did a month ago..
Was caused by "white ants" You can see the big brown nest in this shot...

When I cut it all up they just about carried the peices away...MILLIONS of them!

(This is not the long version remember)..I have seen nests at 30m high, no where eles in the tree..A queen can fly in to any sort of cavity and start from there..They can travell to ground just under the bark and bring dirt up with them(creates humidity)

How many there can be in the top of a tree never ceses to amaze me! Drop the tree and there none for the first 29m..??

Mostly they go up throught the root system, firstly eating the soft fibers, makeing egg laying spots as they go. Then the rest from the inside out, useualy leaving a few inches of wood. I guess to hold it up till they KILL IT, and it doesent take long either!..

I have my own theries on them, the way they infest certin propities, not others..

I worked with the local "Lucus mill" operater for ages, owners of land get us to cut the timber on site, build more sheep "somthings" The last ones are all eaten...

I felt that because all the flitches, left from the last time he was there, are now dust, The white ants simply moved on to the still living ones..Less and less useable wood each time...

Another guy BURNT his pile of timber off cuts, and has great trees??

Who knows?? I NOW know that the tree i was in when it fell over
was infested by ants, just couldent tell they where there!

My mate the "bullant" (countless attacks) is a vegertarian, eats only organic matterial...What are they doing in our trees, there supposed to be on the ground..The young bullants do eat meat...Termites, lots of them..The killer adults are there to protect
them, (do a fine job).
As much as I hate bullants (anywhere), they tell me that there is a nest up in the tree (useally ironbark, our hardest wood here) but have seen them in gums and stringys to..

Bullants are good for trees, just not climbers, White ants are just bad news for everything living, good for reducing forest waste, reducing fuel and cleaning up after humans, as my (soon) picks will show, dont leave your TIMBER gates of the cartrailer, on the ground for a couple of days, they'll be gone...Derek..

 

[Guy Meilleur]

WHite ants are termites, right? So they're off topic. So are ants that bite people but don't make trees unsafe.

What are "bullants"? scientific name:

Myrmecia glubosa. I found no documentation that they make trees unsafe; but this on their disease-fighting work:

Myrmecia gulosa (Australian bull ant) produce secretions from their metapleural exocrine glands which have broad spectrum antimicrobial properties. Such secretions are probably of importance in disease control in bull ant communities. These antimicrobial secretions are stable at 100 degrees C, resistant to proteolytic enzymes and are active over a wide pH range. Of the organisms tested only endospores of Bacillus cereus were found to be resistant. The antimicrobial agent(s) are absorbed by cells and result in cell lysis. The secretions do not interfere with any growth-related processes. These observations demonstrate that insects may be a source of novel antimicrobial agent(s).

 

[Derek]

HUH?

Posted by Guy
"White ants are termites, right? So they're off topic. So are ants that bite people but don't make trees unsafe."

Sorry Guy musent of read the question well....

WHAT WAS THE QUESTION....(off topic?)

Ill go read the first 5 pages again. Could you PLEASE read MY responce AGAIN?...

Concentrait on the "damage" part, ignor the Bullant speial,
Only mentioned it (bullants) cause of the (sarcastic?) question in your poll..

Thanx for the research on ..
Myrmecia glubosa. "I found no documentation that they make trees unsafe; but this on their disease-fighting work":

I can't pronounce half of it....Does it mean I wont get disease
if I keep getting stung??

Posted by Derek
Bullants are good for trees, just not climbers, White ants are just bad news for everything living, good for reducing forest waste, reducing fuel and cleaning up after humans, as my (soon) pics will show, dont leave your TIMBER gates of the cartrailer, on the ground for a couple of days, they'll be gone...Derek..

I thought the first 5 words sumed it up fine..Hmmmmm..

Look up somthing a bit more TOPIC related, and define an ANT for me..
Why is a White ant not concidered by you to be an ant..?
They look like other ants, nest like ants,live like ants they even have preditors like "anteater" to be wary of...
How and why are they not included in your poll?
(still hate Bulllants)..Derek..

Ps The pic is of some of the injuries I got when the tree I was in went over....Derek

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Derek, now I see where the question misled you. If it read "Do ants make trees unstable" instead of "unsafe", that may have been better. Also my bad for reading over your words that bull ants are good for trees; glad to see that you know that.

"Most people are comfortable that they know what an ant is, but hardly anyone seems sure they know what makes a termite a termite. Termites are not ants and certainly not white ants. That's a really sloppy term, please don't use it. They are most closely related to the cockroaches, and so are very different to ants.
Ants share their insect order with bees and wasps (the Hymenoptera). Termites belong to their own insect order (the Isoptera) and have several clear and obvious differences which make it fairly simple to tell them from apart"

My bad also for reusing your term "white ant". The differences between ants and termites are hard to see when they're craling on you and biting like crazy. The post was all about tree risk assessment, and not risk to the climber of getting bitten.

 

[Derek]

Cool Guy...

That helps, I can understand that YOU pro ARBORISTS, see a big difference in bugs in trees...If you knew how many people speak of termites as ants in this country, you would understand why I was a bit "sarcastic" last nite..

We call them White ants, people that spray poisons, advertise their services as the same..In fact I dont know any one that calls them anything else..To us (downunder) they are ants..

Go see whadja do today, my next post..The story continues..

No second thoughts, today was a disaster(financaly)..

Got ONE down..(not three)...Dammmm...
Saw a BLUE bull ant in the tree, I know what that means..

I got the customer to take pics of a peice of wood, I cut and threw it to them..I was at 30m and guess what..TERMITES
(Just to confuses) The BROWN ANT, was everywhere..

Job took 5 hours longer than it should of..I had to be so carefull not to drop out of the tree with them..BTW, I have a bit of a "peave" with termites in trees, lots of scars to show why I hate them so..The lright arm wasent to bad, PM me with an email address and i'll send you the pics of the rest of me..(far to gross to post!!) And then you'll see why I reacted the way i did..

Thanx for the clarification, you put alot of effert into your posts!

In saying that, I'll have to "goggle" the topic myself..We are quite different "up over" and NEED to make sure "white ants" arn't termites!..Then start the massive task of informing the rest of my countryman...Lots of people (like me) think they are ants!!

Home way to late to pick up the photos, I will have them tommorow..I even kept some "brown" termites to show the Dept of AG, Ill let you know what I found out!! Cheers ...Derek..

 

[a_lopa]

so if a few thousand ants are crawling out a cavity ill say its fine

 

[a_lopa]

white ants are termites tell me something i didnt know,ants do hollow out borings from termites i guesss that helps structual issues ''oh that trees full of ants ill rope the top out''