Does Anyone here mill with an electric chainsaw?

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

The stated horsepower of many consumer electric motors in tools doesn't bear much resemblance to reality in comparison to gas powered tools. Supposedly my 15A Makita 16" beam saw puts out max 1800w, 746W is nominally equivalent to 1hp, so it's allegedly max 2.4hp, though since most motors run at about 75 percent efficiency it would be operating at 1.8hp. In reality it doesn't seem nearly the power of my Dewalt 1.75hp 120v table saw. The Makita's steady top end power seems 1.5hp at best, if even that. Large electric motors in table saws and planers have more comparable hp ratings to gas powered tools than handheld electric tools. To call a 110/120V tool 4hp is silly when it can't even possibly achieve that on a 20A circuit, much less a 15A one.

 

[SimonHS]

Three phase is the way to go.

 

[Hermio]

The stated horsepower of many consumer electric motors in tools doesn't bear much resemblance to reality in comparison to gas powered tools. Supposedly my 15A Makita 16" beam saw puts out max 1800w, 746W is nominally equivalent to 1hp, so it's allegedly max 2.4hp, though since most motors run at about 75 percent efficiency it would be operating at 1.8hp. In reality it doesn't seem nearly the power of my Dewalt 1.75hp 120v table saw. The Makita's steady top end power seems 1.5hp at best, if even that. Large electric motors in table saws and planers have more comparable hp ratings to gas powered tools than handheld electric tools. To call a 110/120V tool 4hp is silly when it can't even possibly achieve that on a 20A circuit, much less a 15A one.

The electric toll industry likes to say "develops xx Hp", which is usually twice the motor nameplate rating. And indeed, an induction motor will develop twice its nameplate rating intermittently. It will overheat if run at twice its rating continuously. I have a 3 Hp motor on my log splitter, and that makes it comparable to a 6 Hp gas engine in that service. But log splitting is intermittent in nature. Milling is close to continuous. You need a motor rated for the actual power needs of the mill. And you are right, the circuit breaker rating can limit what a motor can actually deliver. Universal motors are a different case; I don't think they can develop 2x the nameplate. Plus, they are noisy as heck.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

I keep trying to understand electricity and electric motors better, but it's not my strongest area. I know the basics and have worked as an electrician's assistant, but studied mechanical/civil engineering and am better with that. I had been thinking that it's a small wonder I haven't burned out any of my motors running (12 gauge at least) extension cords to them and popping 15a breakers not infrequently, but it's probably good I'm running them on 15a circuits as it limits them from maxing out and burning up. I'd like to go electric in milling one of these days but have to figure out what motors really do the job. Logosol's European offer of an 8kW 400V three phase milling motor seems to be quite enough, though again the 20hp "max" seems about twice what it is continuous. With the 16A fuse it comes with, I only came up with 14hp "max limited" anyway plugging in an equation for horsepower from a 400V three phase motor. But 10hp continuous is way more than enough. The most important trick they came up with in their electric motor "speed saw" version is the special bar and extra large sprocket they use to take a slow rpm electric motor and match gas chainsaw speeds with it. From the bar tail size, it looks like it uses the equivalent of something like a 17 tooth 3.71" diameter 3/8" sprocket. At 22 m/sec, the chain speed is about exactly what a MS880 with a 7 pin sprocket and .404 chain is running at when milling at 9500 rpm. Otherwise in their conventional design with normal bars and 7 or 8 tooth sprockets I assume the chain speed is fairly slow compared to gas saws.

 

[Hermio]

And of course,

I keep trying to understand electricity and electric motors better, but it's not my strongest area. I know the basics and have worked as an electrician's assistant, but studied mechanical/civil engineering and am better with that. I had been thinking that it's a small wonder I haven't burned out any of my motors running (12 gauge at least) extension cords to them and popping 15a breakers not infrequently, but it's probably good I'm running them on 15a circuits as it limits them from maxing out and burning up. I'd like to go electric in milling one of these days but have to figure out what motors really do the job. Logosol's European offer of an 8kW 400V three phase milling motor seems to be quite enough, though again the 20hp "max" seems about twice what it is continuous. With the 16A fuse it comes with, I only came up with 14hp "max limited" anyway plugging in an equation for horsepower from a 400V three phase motor. But 10hp continuous is way more than enough. The most important trick they came up with in their electric motor "speed saw" version is the special bar and extra large sprocket they use to take a slow rpm electric motor and match gas chainsaw speeds with it. From the bar tail size, it looks like it uses the equivalent of something like a 17 tooth 3.71" diameter 3/8" sprocket. At 22 m/sec, the chain speed is about exactly what a MS880 with a 7 pin sprocket and .404 chain is running at when milling at 9500 rpm. Otherwise in their conventional design with normal bars and 7 or 8 tooth sprockets I assume the chain speed is fairly slow compared to gas saws.

And of course, if the chain speed is slower, you need less power. If you had an induction motor, the maximum speed you can get out of it with a 60 Hz power supply is 3600 synchronous rpm (about 3500 at full load.). But if you used a universal motor, they can be built to run as fast as you want. So can DC motors. My Kobalt saw motor runs faster than 3500 rpm, but I am not sure how fast it does run. It seems built for torque rather than speed. I can bury its 18 inch bar in hardwood and it does not slow down or stall. But my MS500i cuts roughly 6 times as fast. If I were in the market for a sawmill, though, I doubt I would go for a chainsaw mill. Some of the bandsaw mills on the market today go for less than $3000, and that is not much more than you might spend on a big saw (660 or 880, for example) plus a chainsaw mill, and the bandsaw mill would do a better job with less effort.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

If I were in the market for a sawmill, though, I doubt I would go for a chainsaw mill. Some of the bandsaw mills on the market today go for less than $3000, and that is not much more than you might spend on a big saw (660 or 880, for example) plus a chainsaw mill, and the bandsaw mill would do a better job with less effort.

This is the standard thought process, which makes sense in most cases. If I was milling softwood for lumber would absolutely go with a bandsaw, and could get away with a cheap one. But I mill fairly extreme hardwoods for the most part for my own woodworking, which require a lot more power than a cheap bandsaw mill. Plus people don't talk much about blade wander problems with knots/hardwoods, which you'll have plenty of in a cheap bandsaw mill. You never get blade wander in a chainsaw mill. For my purposes and having an arsenal of powerful saws already that didn't cost me much, lo pro chain milling with an Alaskan or Logosol makes the most sense. If starting from scratch, though, I would never put $1500-2500 in a big saw unless I had access to plenty of 30-50" diameter trees (my 121cc Stihl cost me $950 new so no regets there). And yes, I'd probably spend $8-10k on a good powerful Woodmizer or equivalent rather than $5k on a Logosol F2 chainsaw mill with electric motor. The $3000 Harbor Freight or equivalent bandsaw mills I wouldn't even consider, the argument for them glosses over the fact those things have really limited capabilities and are rarely as effortless as made out (not portable, destroyed blades every time you hit metal, blade wander, poor construction, etc). If I'm going to get anything, I'm going to get quality that can handle everything you can throw at it. Spoke too soon - hadn't looked at offerings in awhile and Woodmizer's LX50 is a very compelling entry level mill at $3295 and the LX50Super even more so at $4295. They seem to torch the competition in that range and would be great softwood mills to do dimensional lumber for personal use.

 

[Hermio]

This is the standard thought process, which makes sense in most cases. If I was milling softwood for lumber would absolutely go with a bandsaw, and could get away with a cheap one. But I mill fairly extreme hardwoods for the most part for my own woodworking, which require a lot more power than a cheap bandsaw mill. Plus people don't talk much about blade wander problems with knots/hardwoods, which you'll have plenty of in a cheap bandsaw mill. You never get blade wander in a chainsaw mill. For my purposes and having an arsenal of powerful saws already that didn't cost me much, lo pro chain milling with an Alaskan or Logosol makes the most sense. If starting from scratch, though, I would never put $1500-2500 in a big saw unless I had access to plenty of 30-50" diameter trees (my 121cc Stihl cost me $950 new so no regets there). And yes, I'd probably spend $8-10k on a good powerful Woodmizer or equivalent rather than $5k on a Logosol F2 chainsaw mill with electric motor. The $3000 Harbor Freight or equivalent bandsaw mills I wouldn't even consider, the argument for them glosses over the fact those things have really limited capabilities and are rarely as effortless as made out (not portable, destroyed blades every time you hit metal, blade wander, poor construction, etc). If I'm going to get anything, I'm going to get quality that can handle everything you can throw at it.

I am a bit in synch with you, in that I like good tools rather than the cheapest possible. Heck, I use a 500i just to cut firewood, and it is overqualified for the job (but fun!) I once had a friend who had a cheap "portable" sawmill. It was portable in the sense that it could be easily broken down into pieces a man could lift, and loaded into the back of a truck. It was not a trailer-mount. He let me use it, and I milled a few hundred board feet of white oak, red oak, black walnut and cherry. It gave me good results on all, but blade life was quite short with the walnut. The blade wore out after 2-3 12-14" walnuts. Length was about 8-10 feet, as I recall. I think it was rated for 18" diameter logs. It had enough power but I suspect there would be blade wander on the largest logs. I sometimes go to the Paul Bunyan show in Ohio. They have quite an assortment of sawmill vendors there. The bigger ones use bandsaw blades that look to be at least 4" wide. I am a bit terrified of ever unwinding those blades! The ones on the small bandsaw I used were scary enough to open up.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

It gave me good results on all, but blade life was quite short with the walnut. The blade wore out after 2-3 12-14" walnuts. Length was about 8-10 feet, as I recall. I think it was rated for 18" diameter logs. It had enough power but I suspect there would be blade wander on the largest logs.

That's what worries me, I've always been too slow to change out/sharpen chains, and I know I'd end up pushing bandsaw mills through cuts with blades too dull. Trying to resaw only 6-12" hardwoods on my 220V 3hp bandsaw, regular blades dulled instantly and I gave up trying it was so slow and I got such poor results. Couldn't make sense of it, watched videos of people with similar power saws cut ordinary hardwoods no problem. I might pop for a $150 carbide tipped resaw blade one of these days for it, they're apparently the only way to go for serious hardwoods. I gather HSS blades don't last any time at all. My planer blades cut quiet and nicely for maybe a day and soon they're screaming again so loud on red oak I worry about annoying the neighbors. Local sharpening shop loves me I'm such a steady customer.

Mesquite is literally twice the dry hardness of walnut and the like, but I thought aside from live oak which is the hardest of all, my other woods like red oak and Texas/rock elm were just supposed to be a shade softer than white oak, hard for sure but not any kind of extreme hardwood. But the red oak has always been just about the hardest to cut and plane of anything. I weighed and calculated densities the other day of pieces of both the dry red oak and dry rock elm. They were off the charts compared to what they supposedly are normally. The rock elm was nearly as heavy as mesquite is supposed to be, and the red oak was 63 lb/cu ft, what live oak is supposed to be! Can only assume it's an unusual slow growth result of the hot dry south Texas climate. But explains the bandsaw issues. Now granted, when green none of this stuff is nearly as hard to cut though still a lot denser than it's supposed to be. Just resawing dry stuff is a nightmare.

 

[diver64]

I mill with an 066 and sometimes wish it was an 088. I could not conceive using a 261 to mill with.

I've used a Husky 41 with a narrow chain and 16in bar. Went very slow but milled several 6x6 from hemlock. I wouldn't recommend this for a long term milling saw though

 

[Hermio]

That's what worries me, I've always been too slow to change out/sharpen chains, and I know I'd end up pushing bandsaw mills through cuts with blades too dull. Trying to resaw only 6-12" hardwoods on my 220V 3hp bandsaw, regular blades dulled instantly and I gave up trying it was so slow and I got such poor results. Couldn't make sense of it, watched videos of people with similar power saws cut ordinary hardwoods no problem. I might pop for a $150 carbide tipped resaw blade one of these days for it, they're apparently the only way to go for serious hardwoods. I gather HSS blades don't last any time at all. My planer blades cut quiet and nicely for maybe a day and soon they're screaming again so loud on red oak I worry about annoying the neighbors. Local sharpening shop loves me I'm such a steady customer.

Mesquite is literally twice the dry hardness of walnut and the like, but I thought aside from live oak which is the hardest of all, my other woods like red oak and Texas/rock elm were just supposed to be a shade softer than white oak, hard for sure but not any kind of extreme hardwood. But the red oak has always been just about the hardest to cut and plane of anything. I weighed and calculated densities the other day of pieces of both the dry red oak and dry rock elm. They were off the charts compared to what they supposedly are normally. The rock elm was nearly as heavy as mesquite is supposed to be, and the red oak was 63 lb/cu ft, what live oak is supposed to be! Can only assume it's an unusual slow growth result of the hot dry south Texas climate. But explains the bandsaw issues. Now granted, when green none of this stuff is nearly as hard to cut though still a lot denser than it's supposed to be. Just resawing dry stuff is a nightmare.

Interesting. I never measured the density of any dry wood. I did drop pieces of "green" wood into water, and most sunk, indicating higher density than water. I built my kitchen cabinets out of red oak. It tends to chunk on the planer around knots, so it needed a bit of thickness sanding. But I like to use a clear finish with no stain, so I like woods that have a good natural color. We live in Ohio, so I am guessing there are some differences in the tree properties. The hardest woods around here are Osage orange, honey locust and some kind of beech we call musclewood. I have not milled any of them.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Interesting. I never measured the density of any dry wood. I did drop pieces of "green" wood into water, and most sunk, indicating higher density than water. I built my kitchen cabinets out of red oak. It tends to chunk on the planer around knots, so it needed a bit of thickness sanding. But I like to use a clear finish with no stain, so I like woods that have a good natural color. We live in Ohio, so I am guessing there are some differences in the tree properties. The hardest woods around here are Osage orange, honey locust and some kind of beech we call musclewood. I have not milled any of them.

Osage orange and locust are similar to what I'm used to dealing with here, but people don't mill them a lot and I hear even less about people working with their dried form. I look to the Aussies for what they're doing most of the time because their hardwoods are routinely in the 1800-3000 Janka range. (Most American hardwoods are 1000-1400). Learned something on sinking in water I didn't know - people assume it's a density thing, someone said sycamore sinks so it must be really dense and I know it's not. It's water content of the tree and open or closed pores. White oak floats generally, red oak doesn't, though white oak is denser. It's because of the pores. I looked up what the Janka test is and it's very specialized - how much force an 11mm sphere steel ball takes to compress halfway into the surface of the wood. So not something I can do. But someone on a forum came up with their own hardness test, dropping a Robertson #2 screwdriver from a height of five feet and measuring the indents in a variety of woods. I'm going to do that with a metal punch to get an honest comparison of which of my woods is harder and if the red oak is really as hard as it seems. We have an Aussie tree where I grew in Florida we call Australian pine, which is the casuarina tree. Nothing special to cut green, but dry it turns to rock-like form, an off the charts Janka number of 3300. Feel like my red oak is kinda doing that. Never milled casuarina, just cut it up a lot after hurricanes, and just found out it is an incredibly dense wood, close to live oak and what some of my red oak is. My father smokes fish with casuarina and it's been his all time favorite smoking wood.

 

[Hermio]

Osage orange and locust are similar to what I'm used to dealing with here, but people don't mill them a lot and I hear even less about people working with their dried form. I look to the Aussies for what they're doing most of the time because their hardwoods are routinely in the 1800-3000 Janka range. (Most American hardwoods are 1000-1400). Learned something on sinking in water I didn't know - people assume it's a density thing, someone said sycamore sinks so it must be really dense and I know it's not. It's water content of the tree and open or closed pores. White oak floats generally, red oak doesn't, though white oak is denser. It's because of the pores. I looked up what the Janka test is and it's very specialized - how much force an 11mm sphere steel ball takes to compress halfway into the surface of the wood. So not something I can do. But someone on a forum came up with their own hardness test, dropping a Robertson #2 screwdriver from a height of five feet and measuring the indents in a variety of woods. I'm going to do that with a metal punch to get an honest comparison of which of my woods is harder and if the red oak is really as hard as it seems. We have an Aussie tree where I grew in Florida we call Australian pine, which is the casuarina tree. Nothing special to cut green, but dry it turns to rock-like form, an off the charts Janka number of 3300. Feel like my red oak is kinda doing that. Never milled casuarina, just cut it up a lot after hurricanes, and just found out it is an incredibly dense wood, close to live oak and what some of my red oak is. My father smokes fish with casuarina and it's been his all time favorite smoking wood.

Sycamore may indeed be denser than water when it is still green and saturated with water. But when it dries out, it is less dense than water. Very few woods are denser than water when dried. Some exotic hardwoods may be. As I recall, Ebony is denser than water. (No, I didn't look it up recently, so I may be wrong.)

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Sycamore may indeed be denser than water when it is still green and saturated with water. But when it dries out, it is less dense than water. Very few woods are denser than water when dried. Some exotic hardwoods may be. As I recall, Ebony is denser than water. (No, I didn't look it up recently, so I may be wrong.)

Exactly. Live oak just barely I think. Otherwise only tropical exotics - lignum vitae in the Florida Keys for example. Added something to my response about bandsaw mills above - Woodmizer LX50 changes the game in entry level, makes me reconsider my position. Still more for softwood dimensional lumber, but can see using the 14hp Super version for hardwood.

 

[chunez]

Yes, I'm based in the UK and use an Oregon CS1500 corded electric chainsaw (240 volts in the UK). Started milling several years ago using the default 18" Oregon bar with PowerSharp chain. Now using a 20" Panther guidebar with Stihl 3670 000 PM3 chain. (this needs a different sprocket easily fitted to the saw). This combination gives a really smooth cut and I can handle boles up to 16" diameter. Have milled oak, ash, sweet chestnut, horse chestnut, apple and alder amongst other woods. The resulting slabs used mainly for woodturning. See my You Tube channel for more details



Hope this may be of interest
Tim

Your saw is mounted upside down in that cheap chinesium mill. Flip your saw around so the motor is facing the sky and you will be amazed at how well it oils. I know this because I too bought the cheap china mill and followed the horrible assembly instructions to the finest detail. Unfortunately the pictures in the instructions indicate that you mount the saw upside down which is not correct. Oh well, you get what you pay for. Now pay the extra $40 for the Granberg mill and then get the quick attach depth adjustment levers, huge time saver and well worth the money.

 

[Tim Pettigrew]

Hi, thanks for your comments. I have to disagree about the orientation of the motor.

• First of all I have modified the mill and dispensed with the clamps as they are far too big and clumsy for such a narrow 20" long guidebar. Instead the bar is directly bolted to the mill (M6 and M7 bolts). The big advantage is that, whilst milling, I can change the chain if necessary in a few minutes without having to unbolt the guidebar clamps. Also if the motor was the other way up it would be extremey difficult to disengage the powerhead to facilitate chain removal.
• I have fitted a mini-auxiliary oiler (using an M6 Banjo Bolt) and think that this is a better way of delivering oil to the bar, delivering more oil than the on-board oiler would in any position. I think when using a small electric saw for milling, more oil is needed than when the saw is used normally, and the auxiliary oiler certainly delivers that.

Yep, I wish I could afford a Grandberg setup, but as a hobby woodturner (on a pension), it's not an option; but my current setup I've used for about 5 years now and it has given me and my woodturning club some superb locally sourced turning wood.

 

[Coralillo Lo Pro]

Yep, I wish I could afford a Grandberg setup, but as a hobby woodturner (on a pension), it's not an option; but my current setup I've used for about 5 years now and it has given me and my woodturning club some superb locally sourced turning wood.

For a small hobbyist setup to supply turning wood, it's a decent little rig if slow. There will be a lot of dismissal of it from conventional millers, but apples and oranges. Chainsaw milling was always primarily meant for where there's no electricity or logs too big to move that needed milling on site. Not everyone needs a huge petrol saw for their needs and quite often it's pointless overkill. The 1/4" mini chain is an interesting step smaller than picco that makes this possible. As clean a cut is picco is, 1/4" mini should be ultra clean. Only disadvantage to upside down mounting of saw is there's no bite with the bar oriented in that direction, it's pushing back against you so a bit of extra effort pushing it through the cut (has been hashed through elsewhere on this site). On such a small saw and small logs of wood, this really isn't much of an issue. I like anything that experiments with minimizing power needs by milling with much smaller than conventional chain - my experience with picco is it dramatically reduces saw power required. Bolt on bars nearly always make more sense than clamp setups. In creating a custom horizontal bridge saw setup w much more to it than just an Alaskan, what type of mill you use, Granberg or copy, becomes less relevant. The best milling solution is what works best for you, and this has worked for you, so congrats.

 

[Lightning Performance]

Three phase is the way to go.

The only way to go. Control, control and more power.