Dyno. vrs. cutting times

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rupedoggy

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First I want to say I am not trying to discredit Mr. Dunn but I do want to discuss his results. Unless I am wrong he has posted on this forum something to the effect of, "the saw cut 15 seconds and after modification it was 10 seconds, this represents a 33% increase in horsepower". This is where I don't agree.
I remember from my old drag racing interest days that a 40 Hp VW could cut a 20 second 1/4 mile. For any car to cut a 10 second e.t. would take in the neighborhood of 400 HP in a light car. Now maybe I am comparing apples and oranges but Doug Babcock hinted at this in another post and I would just like to discuss this issue a little.
Mr. Dunn, I contend that the horsepower figures can not be accurately correlated to time cutting figures. I.E. If your saw cut a log in 18 seconds and then dropped to 9 seconds, after modification, would you call this 100% increase in horsepower or 50%? Either way is inaccurate if you ask me.
I would like to hear from Doug Babcock, Mr. Dunn and others on this. Mike
 
Rupedoggy, Your correct, useing times to suggest HP gains is no where near accurate. Your drag raceing example is a good one. BTW This is in no way ment to knock Ken. I have talked to the guy on the phone myself and came away with the oppinion that he is really on the ball. If anything kens saws are makeing more power than he suggests in order to gain 50% in performance.
 
Cutting times are a much more tangible and relevant measure than horsepower for most of us.
I don’t care if my 372 is putting out 4 or 400 HP. I do care how quickly I can take a truck load of logs and turn them into cord wood. He has also done a good job trying to control or communicate the variables, (bars and chains…) in his tests.
From my experience with outboard motors though, I do concur that doubling the HP does not equal double the speed.
 
Thats right Oregon Rob. Cutting time are not only more tangible, but they can not me manipulated like a dyno can. I am not saying Walker's does this, but many companys in the past have and still do.
 
Thats right Oregon Rob. Cutting time are not only more tangible, but they can not me manipulated like a dyno can. I am not saying Walker's does this, but many companys in the past have and still do.
 
First Order Linear

Hi Mike,

This topic has finally arrived and I welcome it, but I gotta warn ya, at some point in the course of this discussion I will probably state some things that while perfectly valid in theory, may be hard to substantiate empirically. This is where experienced racers like yourself and Jon come in. I can theorize all day, but you guys are where the chain hits the wood and I refuse to step into the ring with you there because I'm simply not qualified to do so. The bottom line is that while I consider it acceptable that AS history may paint me as an out of control lunatic, I don't want to be remembered as someone who claims he can file a world class racing chain in an hour and a half.

First off, I think that in order to talk about this kind of stuff, we have to keep reminding ourselves that there are many variables to contend with. What has to be done is keep as many things constant as possible otherwise we'll never get anywhere. This being the case, I believe that your 1/4 mile draq racing analogy is not the best one to correlate with HP and how it relates to cutting times. In a drag race, the car is accelerating during the run. In a saw race the engine speed is constant and this makes things a lot easier to think about. Horsepower and torque are linked at the hip. Torque is what is actually measured and horsepower is derived from torque and RPM. Horsepower is what counts when you want to see how fast a car goes. Torque is what determines how fast you get there. If you gear a car too high, you won't have enough torque to get to the RPM point where you have enough HP to achieve it's maximum speed. If the car is geared too low, you'll go past the peak HP point in RPM and again, you won't have enough HP to achieve maximum speed. In any type of engine, HP=(Torque)(RPM)/5252. What this says is that on any engine, torque (in ft.lb.) will always be greater than HP below 5252 RPM and less than HP above this engine speed.

Drag and frictional losses don't increase linearly with speed. As you point out in your drag race scenario, it takes a lot more than double the HP to get to a 10 second ET from a 20 second one. If we get away from the acceleration case and revert to merely a constant top speed condition, we can say that in order to double the speed of something, with everything else being equal, it will take approximately 4 times the HP. This is what is referred to as a "square law" and merely states that HP increases as the square of the speed. Three times faster would require 8 times the HP, 4 times faster would be 16 times the HP.

Just to make things simple, let's leave sprocket size and modified engines' RPM increases (chain speed variables) out of the equation for a moment and assume, for the sake of argument, that the only thing we will change after a saw engine is modified is to increase the chain raker depth. What this says is that if we have the power to support the same engine speed as the stock engine with it's taller rakers and the pressure we put on the bar is also the same, then the cut will be faster. Yes, yes, I know that the RPM will increase and you'll put on a bigger sprocket and maybe leave the rakers the same and....whatever, but I have to do this in stages as what's left of my brain will explode if I don't. By taking bigger bites out of the wood with the increased raker depth of the modified saw, we have left the chain speed, hence the drag and friction of the chain in the wood, around the bar groove, etc., constant. What this does is allows us to further simplify things by eliminating the square law factor, thus making the equation what is called "first order" or "linear"; namely no exponents (squared, cubed, etc).
In this simplistic case, figuring the cutting time through the log as it relates to saw HP becomes the simple inverse function:
Time=1/HP. As an example; if a stock saw with 5 HP does a cut in 20 seconds, it would take 10 HP to do the same cut in 10 seconds, 20 HP to do it in 5 seconds, 40 HP to do it in 2.5 seconds. This is why Robert's V8 Predator goes through a 30 inch log in 0.9 seconds, but it takes 300 or whatever HP to do it. Note that as we keep doubling the HP, the cutting times are reduced by 50%, and as such it would take an infinite amount of HP to do a zero second cut. An inverse function such as this will never reach zero, as with each doubling of the HP, the cutting time will be reduced by half of it's value. I think this is where the confusion arises about the 100%/50% stuff. A 100% increase in HP will result in a 50% reduction in cutting time. Of course this is just a very simplified first order linear approximation.
 
Hey, Doug...you shouldn't post disclaimers and caveats at the beginning of a post...how is a guy gonna pick you apart?

I read your stuff, and remembered something about the magic number of 5252rpm as a convergence point with the torque and Hp lines, but I had to go looking for myself. You are correct, sir,

I think it's discussed pretty well in your other thread (Walker's dyno re-plot...thanks, by the way!), but chainsaw makers aren't the only ones who lie with statistics.

One case in point was the horsepower wars in detroit 30 years ago, only the example I'm thinking of was the reverse of exxagerating figures...some will remember the 455 Buick and its claimed 315 hp in the GS cars. Buick tried to get NHRA to qualify the car in a slower class by publishing its HP at the torque peak, down around 3200 rpm. Never mind that a well-prepared version would spin out nearly 400 hp at around 4700 rpm...just like the big Ponchos, Chevies, Olds's and Fords it was competing with in SS drags.
 
How about the L88 427 Chevy that was rated at 435 HP when it was actually 550 to 600. I wish saw manufacturers would do reverse exageration. I also wish that they wouldn't publish horsepower figures without an RPM to go along with it. Come to think of it, I wish they'd only publish torque vs. RPM graphs. Torque and where it is in the RPM band is all that matters anyway.
 
Howdy-

I noticed on Shindaiwa's website they went the step to list the rated horsepower @ the rpm range which accomplished it, and they even went to the length of listing an "operating range" which was most efficient for the saw. Perhaps saw manufacturers are catching up?
 
Doug...I'm glad you pointed the L88 out. Everybody was doing it, but it seemed fishy when the big blocks made less power with hotter cams in the GM "F" and "A" bodies than in the big mongo-wagons. The Buick 455 with the "small" quadrajet and tame cam made 370 hp in the E225 and big wagons. You could get about the same in the big Olds Vista-hog, but the W-30 made less.
Maybe some of us are just a little too "educated" nowdays.



In today's rapidly shrinking market (Most loggers use higher production equipment, nowadays) it's going to be personal preference and features that do the trick. Half of us "better educated" chaoinsaw nerds will stick with a brand even if another makes .01 hp more, and can rev 50 rpm higher, because we like where we are doing business anyway.

Although, as I say that I am certainly intruigued by the new 7900 Dolmar, and wish the only Makita/Dolmar dealer in 50 miles wouldn't try so hard to stuff an EFCO in my pocket when I stop in...
 
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