Echo Gloves: not that Safe?

[Paul Bunions]

I just modified my Echos, so I'm in the recliner, self-medicating with a magnificent glass of homebrew. Nightmares can't touch me.

 

[dankas]

There are more ways to injure your left hand then you might think @Paul Bunions . One wrong way is 'slapping' the chainbrake. If the left hand is not thumb- locked and to roll your arm to make the brake you could...and many it seems have...let the left hand toward the chain...perhaps the right hand - on the throttle - gooses the machine... If the left hand gets loose as the machine accelerates, it goes to the chain... then to the ER.

Gloves, are NOT required in FSA except in high level threat situation- judged by the personel- you... any sort of gloves are not specified in OSHA... hold your left hand in front of your face...right now...do you like it?

Personally, I never go without gloves in the forest. Leather, vinyl coated (I like the Atlas...) and cut safe chainsaw gloves are always in my reach , most often on my hands.

Do you 'like' your left hand , do what you should.

Protect it.

( I do mostly forest restoration- as a 75 y/o volunteer, so I need to haul a lot of rough wood-gloves for that seem reasonable...all PPE for chainsaw is mandatory in my mind, you may disagree - that's OK ... but I cannot do this work with only one hand. Nor could i hug my wife in the same way I like too. You may have other priorities. So be it.)

 

[Paul Bunions]

I cannot do this work with only one hand. Nor could i hug my wife in the same way I like too. You may have other priorities. So be it.)

Do not be alarmed. Hugging your wife is not among my priorities. My own wife keeps a close eye on me.

 

[sean donato]

The pants are also rather hot. OK in colder weather. I use Labonville chaps. They have (4) buckles per leg, so they wrap around almost as much as pants, but have some breathing room at the rear. But I don't climb trees.

I wouldn't trade my cloggers for any pair of chaps during summer. Had several different pairs of chaps over the years, and they all suck vs clogger pants. Only where chaps over winter or for really short time periods during summer.

 

[Hermio]

We refer to this as ‘survivor’s bias’. An example:

A guy gets up in a bar and loudly states: ‘I NEVER WEAR SEATBELTS, AND I’M STILL ALIVE!’. A bunch of guys nod in agreement.

The problem is that the people who died, not wearing seatbelts, are not there to object, or offer a different perspective.

Accident, incident, and injury statistics are developed from large numbers of people, not just from ‘everybody’ that some guy knows.

I have seen videos, and read reports, of things with saw use, tree cutting, etc., that I would never have believed.

Philbert

I will add an unbelievable, but true, story to the mix. My brother-in-law was once an EMT, and he always had tales to tell. In one case, a guy asked his wife to hold up a small log while he cut it in half with a chainsaw. Well, the guy managed to cut the log and leave a nice, raggedy kerf in his wife's breast. It could have been worse. I am not sure who was more stupid: the guy or his wife.

 

[Breckinridge Elkins]

My local timber buyer/sawmill operator does not use any PPE except for eye protection. He cuts thousands of trees per year and is in his 70s. I would say since he has done it for a living for so long he qualifies as a professional. I am sure he is quite skilled. But it only takes one screwup to prove the need for PPE. He is nearly deaf, by the way.

What a terrible example. Lucky is not the same as smart.

 

[Hermio]

What a terrible example. Lucky is not the same as smart.

True. I do not advocate doing what he does. But I think many pros think they are good enough to not need PPE. But it only takes once...

 

[HumBurner]

What a terrible example. Lucky is not the same as smart.

Accepting luck for what it is, luck, as opposed to thinking that one is so great that they never got hurt are also two very different things. We've all had close calls, even if our brains and egos might sway us to think otherwise.

 

[Tim Kirkpatrick]

I once was rolling rounds of black locust about 18" diameter up onto a pickup truck with a ramp when the bark slipped off, letting the log escape my grip, whereby it rolled down the ramp and knocked my legs out from under me, resulting in a faceplant and a busted lip.

I agree Black Locust and N.M. Locust are thorny as is Cat-claw and Mesquite. My opinion Pyracantha, Russian Olive and Monkey Puzzle trees are the worst. Spines long enough to kill you.

 

[Marley5]

I've had black locust swell my hand up like a bee sting

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

I finally broke down and ordered some chaps, and when I read that the top of the left hand was one of the most common sites for injuries, I also ordered some Echo safety gloves. I didn't look at them too carefully. I figured Echo would know how to make a safety glove.

They have two big features: vibration protection and cut protection. I'm all for the vibration protection. My right hand feels a little funny sometimes, and I think it may have something to do with the time I've put in with angle grinders.

I thought the gloves would contain the same stuff as chaps. Looks like they do not. Far as I can tell, they rely on kevlar to prevent cuts.

I am not overly impressed with kevlar. From riding motorcycles, I know it is vastly inferior to leather when it comes to preventing road rash. Not even in the same universe.

I've used kevlar gloves for cutting up fish, but they had stainless wires in them, and a filet knife is not a chainsaw.

Did I get the wrong gloves?

They seem to me to be good gloves, which is why I use them.

From what I understand:

The outer layer protects the protective layers.

The first kevlar layer should pull away from the second layer and clog one or more of the saw sprockets, generally the bar tip sprocket. The second layer should continue to protect your hand.

The second layer, if needed, should hopefully clog larger, more powerful saws, though it's not a guarantee. Gloves need to breathe (to reduce bacteria growth) and be light (so the wearer has the least interference with touch perception) and conform to your hand (for safety and feel), so they're meant to be light and tight (like you're skin). Echo does all the above, although some other brands of gloves do also.

I realize many forum members love huge saws (as do I) however when lugging a saw around all day I tend to use the lightest saw that gets the job done. Since I'm not a faller sawing is only part of the job and is one of many tools. (Smaller saws also use less fuel and oil, so that's also less to carry). Smaller saws generally have less power and are more likely to be stopped by gloves than a large CC saw, which works out because smaller saws generally kick back more quickly posing more danger to hands (in theory). (Larger saws have more mass and tend to rotate towards the operator more slowly, posing other dangers).

The Echo gloves also damp vibration. My hands feel better at the end of the day when using them verses no gloves.

High Quality PPE is cheap insurance, especially compared to medical bills. On jobs I do it has saved me from a lot of things others had to contend with like poison oak, 2" buckthorn spike stabs, branch slaps, etc. Totally worth the price in my case as it absorbs things my body would otherwise have to.

 

[Breckinridge Elkins]

True. I do not advocate doing what he does. But I think many pros think they are good enough to not need PPE. But it only takes once...

If nothing else, hearing loss qualifies as an injury.

 

[Hermio]

They seem to me to be good gloves, which is why I use them.

From what I understand:

The outer layer protects the protective layers.

The first kevlar layer should pull away from the second layer and clog one or more of the saw sprockets, generally the bar tip sprocket. The second layer should continue to protect your hand.

The second layer, if needed, should hopefully clog larger, more powerful saws, though it's not a guarantee. Gloves need to breathe (to reduce bacteria growth) and be light (so the wearer has the least interference with touch perception) and conform to your hand (for safety and feel), so they're meant to be light and tight (like you're skin). Echo does all the above, although some other brands of gloves do also.

I realize many forum members love huge saws (as do I) however when lugging a saw around all day I tend to use the lightest saw that gets the job done. Since I'm not a faller sawing is only part of the job and is one of many tools. (Smaller saws also use less fuel and oil, so that's also less to carry). Smaller saws generally have less power and are more likely to be stopped by gloves than a large CC saw, which works out because smaller saws generally kick back more quickly posing more danger to hands (in theory). (Larger saws have more mass and tend to rotate towards the operator more slowly, posing other dangers).

The Echo gloves also damp vibration. My hands feel better at the end of the day when using them verses no gloves.

High Quality PPE is cheap insurance, especially compared to medical bills. On jobs I do it has saved me from a lot of things others had to contend with like poison oak, 2" buckthorn spike stabs, branch slaps, etc. Totally worth the price in my case as it absorbs things my body would otherwise have to.

Apparently there is an international standard for protection level, based on chain speed. They have classes 0-3. My Husqvarna gloves are class 0, rated for 16 m/s chain speed. No load speed on my MS500i is 28 m/s, which would need a class 3. But if it hits at less than full speed, as when a chain brake activates, it may be OK.

 

[HumBurner]

Here are examples of, "do as I say, not as I do." I would never recommend anyone to try this, but there are reasons why these were the best options. Thanks to my picture-takers.

I know full well all the risks I was taking, and have made cuts like this 100+ times in my short-career. My left hand and arm were as rigid as a piece of metal tubing, fully anticipating kickback. [And yes, I'm aware the backcut is high on the far side on the madrone. The gully immediately below the tree drops off fast 10-12', hence how my feet are positioned.]

 

[HumBurner]

And fun with polesaws:




That is a snowball bush from a rooting that has been a legacy in our family from 100+ years ago. Unscathed.

 

[BeatCJ]

Apparently there is an international standard for protection level, based on chain speed. They have classes 0-3. My Husqvarna gloves are class 0, rated for 16 m/s chain speed. No load speed on my MS500i is 28 m/s, which would need a class 3. But if it hits at less than full speed, as when a chain brake activates, it may be OK.

I don't see that as a valid thought process. IF your chain brake gets activated, it will make the chain stop NEARLY instantaneously. In MY Opinion, the PPE you need to wear should be based on not having other safety equipment in the equation.

I do make choices, I don't wear gloves. I can picture the left hand injuries, and I agree with what has been said earlier in this thread, I think a significant portion are based on operator error. (99%, 99.99%?) I have experienced significant kickbacks and hurt my thumb, but never lost my grip.

 

[Hermio]

I agree Black Locust and N.M. Locust are thorny as is Cat-claw and Mesquite. My opinion Pyracantha, Russian Olive and Monkey Puzzle trees are the worst. Spines long enough to kill you.

The black locusts around here have few thorns, and they are not long. Our honey locusts have killer thorns, and lots of them.

 

[Hermio]

I don't see that as a valid thought process. IF your chain brake gets activated, it will make the chain stop NEARLY instantaneously. In MY Opinion, the PPE you need to wear should be based on not having other safety equipment in the equation.

I do make choices, I don't wear gloves. I can picture the left hand injuries, and I agree with what has been said earlier in this thread, I think a significant portion are based on operator error. (99%, 99.99%?) I have experienced significant kickbacks and hurt my thumb, but never lost my grip.

I have never had my chain get anywhere close to my left hand during a kickback. I have always kept my grip. I have also never had it get near my face. But, after reading the stats, I decided to get the gloves. I likely will not use them when bucking in my open fields, but will use them when de-branching logs in congested spaces, which is where I am at most risk for a kickback.

 

[BeatCJ]

Not my point. My thought was IF you had something happen that caused the chain to cause an injury to your hand, I doubt the chain brake would have been engaged. So, if you are using the gloves to protect your hand, the Class of PPE should be calculated on the chain speed without the brake engaged.

 

[Philbert]

Apparently there is an international standard for protection level, based on chain speed.

Not exactly.

There are EU standards.
There are US standards (plus a separate standard for USFS).
There are Canadian standards (BC had their own).
Australia, New Zealand, Japan, etc.

Some of the Clogger blogs (linked above) discuss and compare these, including differences in testing methods.

For example, ‘chain speed’, to me overlooks / ignores differences in stopping a 30cc saw and a 70cc saw.

So OK for meeting minimum standards, and, perhaps, comparing two items tested the same way, but the standards have limits.

Philbert