Electric/gas 37 ton Northern

[leon]

wood splitter misbehavior

Well, I tried the come-along trick. Did't move a inch. Also ran it for 30mins with out useing the ram. Still got hot. I'm waiting on the new valve from Northern and see how that works. :bang:

Well to soothe the ache from your problem you proved that the piston packings, cylinder rod oring, stuffing box o ring, stuffing box packing are stiil intact and properly functioning soooooo that leaves the control valve or pumps as the culprit; well done my friend well done. If the new valve does not solve it it is the pump!!!!

:newbie: :rockn: :hmm3grin2orange: :

 

[rx7145]

Well to soothe the ache from your problem you proved that the piston packings, cylinder rod oring, stuffing box o ring, stuffing box packing are stiil intact and properly functioning soooooo that leaves the control valve or pumps as the culprit; well done my friend well done. If the new valve does not solve it it is the pump!!!!

:newbie: :rockn: :hmm3grin2orange: :

Thanks, If that does't fix it I'll look into the suction being a problem. But no one has said that could be it. Just somthing I was thinking about. I was looking in the splitter manual at the suction strainer; the P/N is the same as the one listed in the catalog as "not for use with pumps over 10gpm". Seems like northern is breaking there own rule. (Northern P/N is 4011)

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_13238_13238

 

[rx7145]

I don't think its the pump because it does it with both pumps.

 

[rx7145]

Well changed out the valve, No fix.:censored:

I'm running out of ideas. I guess the next thing is to look into the suction side of the system but no one here has said that could be the problem.

I guess I'll call the Northern repair place and see what they say.

:bang:

 

[Al Smith]

The longer this goes the less sense it makes.A stab in the dark,do you have some type of blockage on the return line going from the valve to the tank? That pump while not being on line doing work should produce almost next to no pressure,it's just circulating the oil.

Another stab in the dark,try running it with the tank fill open.I don't think a blocked vent would cause a heat rise but you never know,you've tried about everything else.

I've got a little bitty electrically driven splitter with a 5 HP motor,3 1/4" cylinder that only has about a 2 quart tank.It doesn't get hot at all.

 

[Al Smith]

I just looked at the pictures again and a thought occured to me.It appears the pump pressure lines go through check valves and then tee off to the valve.If per chance these are too small it would cause a partial restriction to the system.If they are Parker check valves the GPM rating should be stamped on them some place.You might try removing one of the checks to see if that could be the cause,if you haven't already been that route.

If they are too small,go to 1 inch and bush them down to 3/4 or whatever size the pressure line is.

 

[rx7145]

Well the valves are rated at 15GPM but the splitter still gets hot with the factory set up. I'm sure the valves are adding some heat but I don't think they are my problem.

I have ran the splitter with out the vent cap on before when I had the temp sensor down in the oil so Don't think that is the problem.

Now I thinking the in tank strainer might be the problem. In the Northern catalog they say that the strainer is rated at 10gpm, but they have it on a 16gpm pump. If the strainer was clogged even a little would that cause high temps? I read from a link posted here about one guy that says NOT to run a strainer.

But I do agree that the longer this goes on the stranger if gets. I keep thinking it must be something simple. :bang: :bang:

 

[leon]

Well changed out the valve, No fix.:censored:

I'm running out of ideas. I guess the next thing is to look into the suction side of the system but no one here has said that could be the problem.

I guess I'll call the Northern repair place and see what they say.

:bang:

:chainsawguy: :newbie: :bang:


I am almost tempted to grab that thing and take it apart as it sounds like the suction line is collapsing inside the rubber casing and starving the pump, or (the strainer is full of junk thereby creating all that friction heat).

I thought I mentioned the suction suide as a possibility?


one nasty thing comes to mind-the suction strainer is in the suction line rather than the tank and that would do it.


The only way to solve this is drain the reservoir into a clean pail or two or three, save the oil and inspect both the suction line-off the tank and pump with a wire and flashlight and remove the screen to check it for junk. GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!-please note -not directed at you but Northern Tool, GGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!


GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

leon

 

[rx7145]

:chainsawguy: :newbie: :bang:


I am almost tempted to grab that thing and take it apart as it sounds like the suction line is collapsing inside the rubber casing and starving the pump, or (the strainer is full of junk thereby creating all that friction heat).

I thought I mentioned the suction suide as a possibility?


one nasty thing comes to mind-the suction strainer is in the suction line rather than the tank and that would do it.


The only way to solve this is drain the reservoir into a clean pail or two or three, save the oil and inspect both the suction line-off the tank and pump with a wire and flashlight and remove the screen to check it for junk. GRRRRRRRR!!!!!!-pleae note -not directed at you but Northern Tool, GGGGRRRRRRRRR!!!!!


GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!

leon

Yes you did. I just didn't want to drain the tank. I do have a skid-steer at my disposal now so I could cap the vent and hang it up on It's side.

That will be this weekends project.

 

[CylinderService]

Overheating hydraulic system

You're getting a lot of hearsay information, and just plain "old wives tales", which I find common in fields in which most people have little training or experience.
First, how hot is too hot? At 180 degrees, Buna (nitrile rubber) seals start to break down - they lose their elasticity - get hard & brittle. A good running temp is 140-150. A rule of thumb is: if it's too hot to hold your hand on it, it's too hot. Oil viscosity gets too low and friction increases dramatically.

Causes of overheating:
The oil: ATF is good in cold weather because it has a low pour point, and will flow easily into the pump even on start-up. It's not recommended in warmer weather, because it thins out too much and doesn't lubricate the fast moving metal parts in the pump, thus causing lots of heat from friction. 10 wt motor oil is good in warmer weather - it lubricates well and can take the heat. We use it in our shop testers and have no problems with foaming or anything else. (the detergent in motor oils keeps dirt in suspension, it doesn't foam. It's not dish detergent, which has a foaming additive for the housewives' benefit.)
Cheap tractor store oil is a common cause of overheating.

The tank: for industrial systems we recommend 3 minute's worth of oil in the reservoir. Never less than one minute's oil. (Your tank is pretty small).

The lines & fittings: 16 GPM is generally the maximum for 1/2" lines, that is, it takes quite a bit of power to push the oil through the lines. All that power is wasted, and is returned to you as heat. The more fittings and other components, like check valves, in the line, the bigger it needs to be. Other components, like the directional valve, also need to be sized for the flow. Using all of them to their maximum capacity is just asking for a heat problem. It's like driving your car at 100 MPH - it will probably do it, but there will be more problems.

The cylinder: if there is internal leakage in the cylinder, it will generate heat. Sometimes you can feel it on the cylinder barrel. Leaky piston seals will cause this. You can test this by fully extending the cylinder, removing the rod end hose, and trying to extend the cylinder again. WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES! If the piston is leaking, oil will come out the open cylinder port when the rod is not moving. If it doesn't, the cylinder is OK. It won't hurt the cylinder to run it against the end. (By the way, iron piston rings always leak a little, and are almost never found on mobile equipment, just a few industrial applications which don't have to hold solidly.)

Now, your system: I assume you're not trying to run both pumps at once. That would really be too much flow.
Air in the oil might cause heat, but it would also cause the pump to whine a lot - a loud, irritating noise which is hard to miss. The same if the intake hose collapsed.
I think you're probably suffering from a combination of most of the problems described above. A larger tank might be enough to help, but probably not with all the 1/2" hoses & fittings. The check valves are a good idea to protect the non-running pump, but they will also add to the heat. You could put a couple full-bore ball valves in, and close the one to the pump you're not using. (They have to be high pressure ball valves.)
I don't know what kind of directional valve you have, but it may be undersized for the flow too. Undersized components are cheaper and so are common on cheaper equipment. Inexperienced technical service reps are cheaper too!
A pressure gauge installed between the pump & valve would tell how much it takes just to circulate your oil. 100 PSI or less would be good. It could also tell if any changes you make have helped reduce the pressure.
If you have any other thoughts or questions, just email me:

[email protected]

 

[leon]

splitter etc.

You're getting a lot of hearsay information, and just plain "old wives tales", which I find common in fields in which most people have little training or experience.
First, how hot is too hot? At 180 degrees, Buna (nitrile rubber) seals start to break down - they lose their elasticity - get hard & brittle. A good running temp is 140-150. A rule of thumb is: if it's too hot to hold your hand on it, it's too hot. Oil viscosity gets too low and friction increases dramatically.

Causes of overheating:
The oil: ATF is good in cold weather because it has a low pour point, and will flow easily into the pump even on start-up. It's not recommended in warmer weather, because it thins out too much and doesn't lubricate the fast moving metal parts in the pump, thus causing lots of heat from friction. 10 wt motor oil is good in warmer weather - it lubricates well and can take the heat. We use it in our shop testers and have no problems with foaming or anything else. (the detergent in motor oils keeps dirt in suspension, it doesn't foam. It's not dish detergent, which has a foaming additive for the housewives' benefit.)
Cheap tractor store oil is a common cause of overheating.

The tank: for industrial systems we recommend 3 minute's worth of oil in the reservoir. Never less than one minute's oil. (Your tank is pretty small).

The lines & fittings: 16 GPM is generally the maximum for 1/2" lines, that is, it takes quite a bit of power to push the oil through the lines. All that power is wasted, and is returned to you as heat. The more fittings and other components, like check valves, in the line, the bigger it needs to be. Other components, like the directional valve, also need to be sized for the flow. Using all of them to their maximum capacity is just asking for a heat problem. It's like driving your car at 100 MPH - it will probably do it, but there will be more problems.

The cylinder: if there is internal leakage in the cylinder, it will generate heat. Sometimes you can feel it on the cylinder barrel. Leaky piston seals will cause this. You can test this by fully extending the cylinder, removing the rod end hose, and trying to extend the cylinder again. WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES! If the piston is leaking, oil will come out the open cylinder port when the rod is not moving. If it doesn't, the cylinder is OK. It won't hurt the cylinder to run it against the end. (By the way, iron piston rings always leak a little, and are almost never found on mobile equipment, just a few industrial applications which don't have to hold solidly.)

Now, your system: I assume you're not trying to run both pumps at once. That would really be too much flow.
Air in the oil might cause heat, but it would also cause the pump to whine a lot - a loud, irritating noise which is hard to miss. The same if the intake hose collapsed.
I think you're probably suffering from a combination of most of the problems described above. A larger tank might be enough to help, but probably not with all the 1/2" hoses & fittings. The check valves are a good idea to protect the non-running pump, but they will also add to the heat. You could put a couple full-bore ball valves in, and close the one to the pump you're not using. (They have to be high pressure ball valves.)
I don't know what kind of directional valve you have, but it may be undersized for the flow too. Undersized components are cheaper and so are common on cheaper equipment. Inexperienced technical service reps are cheaper too!
A pressure gauge installed between the pump & valve would tell how much it takes just to circulate your oil. 100 PSI or less would be good. It could also tell if any changes you make have helped reduce the pressure.
If you have any other thoughts or questions, just email me:

[email protected]

anyway we found the cylinder in good condition-not blown out or with oring blow by etc.

As a mine mechanic I have found that mining equipment builders will scrimp on plumbing all the time everytime-they love to use pipe fittings instead of hydraulic fittings. From what I remember "Northern" has one guy that builds their log splitters from the ground up-but this may have changed.

I cant tell you how many hundreds of times I have found debris in new hydraulic equipment(cylinders, hose , tanks, etc.) and valve bodies with reduced inlet and outlet ports so I can assure you I know what I am talking about-I may have been away from it for a while but basic hydraulic trouble shooting/diagnosis is something you do not forget as you are dealing with simple physics.

If anything I would blame Northern Tool and Equipment for offering this product to the public and skimping on the proper details of plumbing and design by going out on the cheap- my timberwolf TW5-FC is a good example of proper design and material use.

 

[Al Smith]

A lot can be said for reducing flow in a hydraulic system,a little example.

Some years ago I reworked a dozer blade on an old OC-6 Oliver crawler.I changed it from a fixed blade to a mechaincal angle,hydraulic tilt.Using what I had on hand which was a 3/4" port valve and long half inch pressure lines,it worked just fine with one exception.

Because of the reduced hose size the governers will crack just tilting the blade which should really put almost no load on the system at all.Using the main lift cylinders it will raise the machine off the ground and not open the governer at all unless the cylinders bottom out.Then that 6 cylinder Waukisha gasser will bark a tad bit.

 

[triptester]

Attached are some pictures of #8 or 1/2" hydraulic fittings although they are the same size the orifice varies greatly.
The two fittings on the left are NPT swivel . The fittings on the right are JIC.
Some fittings can cause a lot of restriction.

Pardon the poor pics.

 

[rx7145]

You're getting a lot of hearsay information, and just plain "old wives tales", which I find common in fields in which most people have little training or experience.
First, how hot is too hot? At 180 degrees, Buna (nitrile rubber) seals start to break down - they lose their elasticity - get hard & brittle. A good running temp is 140-150. A rule of thumb is: if it's too hot to hold your hand on it, it's too hot. Oil viscosity gets too low and friction increases dramatically.

Well it is too hot then. After 30min I can not touch the cylinder.

Causes of overheating:
The oil: ATF is good in cold weather because it has a low pour point, and will flow easily into the pump even on start-up. It's not recommended in warmer weather, because it thins out too much and doesn't lubricate the fast moving metal parts in the pump, thus causing lots of heat from friction. 10 wt motor oil is good in warmer weather - it lubricates well and can take the heat. We use it in our shop testers and have no problems with foaming or anything else. (the detergent in motor oils keeps dirt in suspension, it doesn't foam. It's not dish detergent, which has a foaming additive for the housewives' benefit.)
Cheap tractor store oil is a common cause of overheating.

The ATF is dextron III. Northern says to use ATF at temps over 70*. If changing the ATF out would fix the problem I would but I know of other people who run ATF year around with no problems. If I could do it over I would use 10wt oil but now I already have $75 in ATF

The tank: for industrial systems we recommend 3 minute's worth of oil in the reservoir. Never less than one minute's oil. (Your tank is pretty small).

True. Thanks Northern.

The lines & fittings: 16 GPM is generally the maximum for 1/2" lines, that is, it takes quite a bit of power to push the oil through the lines. All that power is wasted, and is returned to you as heat. The more fittings and other components, like check valves, in the line, the bigger it needs to be. Other components, like the directional valve, also need to be sized for the flow. Using all of them to their maximum capacity is just asking for a heat problem. It's like driving your car at 100 MPH - it will probably do it, but there will be more problems.

The valve has 3/4 in/out ports and 1/2in working ports. The oil will still get hot with the valve open so I'm thinking the valve should be flowing enough. If I call Northern they will say the out let of the pump is 1/2in so that is big enough.



The cylinder: if there is internal leakage in the cylinder, it will generate heat. Sometimes you can feel it on the cylinder barrel. Leaky piston seals will cause this. You can test this by fully extending the cylinder, removing the rod end hose, and trying to extend the cylinder again. WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES! If the piston is leaking, oil will come out the open cylinder port when the rod is not moving. If it doesn't, the cylinder is OK. It won't hurt the cylinder to run it against the end. (By the way, iron piston rings always leak a little, and are almost never found on mobile equipment, just a few industrial applications which don't have to hold solidly.)

With the system getting just as hot without useing the ram I don't think the cylinder is leaking. I also did the come-along trick posted earler with out finding anything.

Now, your system: I assume you're not trying to run both pumps at once. That would really be too much flow.
Air in the oil might cause heat, but it would also cause the pump to whine a lot - a loud, irritating noise which is hard to miss. The same if the intake hose collapsed.
I think you're probably suffering from a combination of most of the problems described above. A larger tank might be enough to help, but probably not with all the 1/2" hoses & fittings. The check valves are a good idea to protect the non-running pump, but they will also add to the heat. You could put a couple full-bore ball valves in, and close the one to the pump you're not using. (They have to be high pressure ball valves.)
I don't know what kind of directional valve you have, but it may be undersized for the flow too. Undersized components are cheaper and so are common on cheaper equipment. Inexperienced technical service reps are cheaper too!
A pressure gauge installed between the pump & valve would tell how much it takes just to circulate your oil. 100 PSI or less would be good. It could also tell if any changes you make have helped reduce the pressure.
If you have any other thoughts or questions, just email me:

[email protected]

First thank you for responding. Does one of the pumps look familiar? ( I bought it off you a couple of months ago ) You said the pump would wine if the strainer was clogged or the suction line was collapsing. This might be what is happening, the electric motor always made more noise than I thought it would/should. I can't tell with the gas engine running as it too loud. I guess this would be called a cheaper splitter but $1900 is allot of money for me!

I'm going to check the strainer this weekend and look into getting a pressure gauge installed. The thing that :censored: me the most is Northern installing a strainer that is to small. 3/4in suction fittings?? Come on??

What are your thoughts on removing the strainer all together?

 

[rx7145]

.

I cant tell you how many hundreds of times I have found debris in new hydraulic equipment(cylinders, hose , tanks, etc.) and valve bodies with reduced inlet and outlet ports so I can assure you I know what I am talking about-I may have been away from it for a while but basic hydraulic trouble shooting/diagnosis is something you do not forget as you are dealing with simple physics.

If anything I would blame Northern Tool and Equipment for offering this product to the public and skimping on the proper details of plumbing and design by going out on the cheap- my timberwolf TW5-FC is a good example of proper design and material use.

I blame Northern tool also. I'm thinking the strainer now the more I re-read these posts. Oh how I wish there was a 2" ntp suction. (1.5in now)

 

[drmiller100]

you guys sure don't read very well.

suction problems leads to loud annoying noises, jerky movement, and foamy oil.
you don't describe any of those things.

my bet is a plugged something in the pressure side. and my bet is that it is related to something you did to hook the electric side of life up.

remove the one way valves. they don't do anything useful. putting pressure to the pump when it isn't running won't cuase problems.

 

[046]

dumb question here....

did you run splitter stock first before adding all the extra fittings/pump etc? if so... did splitter overheat without any mods done?

usually factory will not honor warranty, once they find out splitter has been extensively modded.

totally agree with comments about Northern selling splitter with no fluids installed (including engine). this opens Northerns to potential problems if wrong fluid is used and/or not installed correctly.

my 35ton Speeco came with all fluids installed ready to run. I've had zero issues....

I blame Northern tool also. I'm thinking the strainer now the more I re-read these posts. Oh how I wish there was a 2" ntp suction. (1.5in now)

 

[VelvetFoot]

There was a guy on hearth.com who found some newspaper in the hydraulic tank of his new splitter.

 

[CylinderService]

RX,
Well yeah, it did look like an NBC pump – I guess it’s a small world.
And I certainly won’t dispute that $1900 isn’t pocket change!
Removing the strainer if you only have a 3/4” suction port is a good idea. Most hydraulic systems don’t use any intake strainer so as not to restrict it, but they are common on log splitters because of all the potential contamination. I would remove it – the suction port should be at least 1”, and have a 1” hose to the pump. However, if the pump isn’t whining, it may not make a difference. (The whining is louder when the pressure goes up.)
If the oil is getting hot just circulating through the valve, then I would have to agree with some of the others who suspect a flow blockage somewhere. If you can find such a blockage, you may solve the problem all at once. If there isn’t an actual blockage, then you probably won’t be able to just make one change and make it cooler. It may require several changes, where each helps a little. . I encourage you again to get a pressure gauge.
I think someone is getting mixed up about ATF and temperature. It’s usually recommended for cold weather, and not hot weather. That comes from tech people giving advice based on what they have heard, rather than from experience.
It’s true that some systems use ATF year-round and that is fine, but if you’re having overheating problems, changing oil is one thing to try.

Your problem, and persistent questions, have sure provoked a lot of response and ideas, which I think is really great – it gets us all thinking. Which is what this site is all about.

[email protected]

 

[Al Smith]

For all intents and purposses you could run 30 wt motor oil and it should not get hot.Most likely not a grand plan though.

Ya know,it's about as hard to diagnose hydraulic problems over the internet as it is to suggest a fix for a chainsaw.