Elephant in the room.

[imagineero]

What I read in this story is everybody wants to milke the HO's of $$$ and kiss their ass. I have worked with a few rich people (read billions) and they really appreciate a straight forward answer, if you can talk to the powers that be and not just a bunch of "yes men" handlers.

Well, that's one way of saying it.... You're talking economics vs ethics there mate. And you can make an argument quite easily for either side.

Another way would be to say that the core business of every business is staying in business. Rich people are notoriously opinionated in my experience, which is why I target my advertising towards middle to upper middle class folk who seem happier to pay for an expert opinion. So, lets say you turn up and you're the business owner. Straight away the guy is all over you;

"Ive had 2 guys tell me that tree isn't going to last, but I want it to last. I'm only going to be here a few more years and I want that view. I paid for it"

"well, the other guys were right, that tree is going to come down one way or the other"

"Maybe true, but it isn't coming down while I'm here, do what you can do for it, you're a tree surgeon, do some tree surgery"

So maybe you feel very strongly that the tree really ought to come down. In that case, you can either do the trimming work, or walk away from the job and someone else will do the trimming work. Some folk are only looking for one outcome, and whether it's you or the next guy, the outcome is going to be the same. If you've got equipment and a crew, you can have work, or not. Either way, the outcome is going to be the same.

Either way, Beast is going to be working for whoever wins the job.

When you're the contract climber on a job like that, you've just got to be the zen master.

And you have not worked for any billionaires. There are only 425 bllionaires in the states, and if I read your post correctly as 'billions' meaning having more than one billion, the number is significantly reduced. You have not worked for even one of these people, let alone a few of them. I'm willing to retract that statement if you'd care to name names, otherwise you may wish to remove the 'billions' from your claim.

Shaun

 

[ropensaddle]

As a tree risk assessor you have to look at three factors:
- likelihood of a failure
- size of the part that is likely to fail
- target

In this scenario, we are only concerning ourselves with the first factor as it is the whole tree that is a concern. So there are three types of whole tree failure:
- stem snapping
- hinge plate failure
- rotational failure
Given the existing lean, unless there is indications of internal rot we can't see on the photos, I would rule stem snap out.
A rotational failure is when the rootball stays intact but the soil around the rootball fails. These usually occur in saturated soils and often where there are changes in soil types such as a loamy soil sitting on top of an impervious clay layer.
A hinge plate failure is usually where the tree roots 'let go' from the soil holding them. Could be from saturated fine textured soils or could also be from root rot.

So here's what I would be looking at.
- soil types, fine textured (lots of clays and silts) or coarse textured more sands, gravels and cobbles. Roots anchor better to coarse textured soils than fine textured soils.
- is there bedrock that may be affecting rooting depth
- has the root mass been compromised in the past 6 years, ie construction, soil raising etc

If it is an Aleppo pine as Jeff suggests, then it naturally has a twisted form and the wood can withstand the lean. To me, lightening the canopy weight and ensuring the strength of the branch attachments would be a reasonable prescription.

I will put in a weasel clause however, that my opinion is based on the information provided.

Lol well here in Arkansas they's a 4th factor that trumps all 3 you just mentioned called twisters. Having assessed 30 years without a title one thing I've noticed its always the big ones that uproot here many times from lack of pruning but not always . Geo tropism formed trees near creeks on hillsides if exposed but sometimes at ground zero it is just a big clearcut with shingles and matted insulation everywhere.

Ps: good luck telling
mrs Jones her 135 foot Liquidambar is safe hanging over her roof. However; I have tried to and to be honest the sweet gum will usually shed its limbs before failure so; other than the gum balls they truly are safer than say the huge hackbury! Opps another factor species characteristics

 

[TreeGuyHR]

And basically, this consulting arborist ( who is probably a raving pederast , cheats on his taxes and eats yogurt with freeze dried kale in it) pretty much dumped any liability on the hands of the people who actually are capable of knowing up from down.

Man I should go back to one of those positive thinking seminars but I gotta say I think all those people were fooling themselves.

Your take on Birkenstock wearing tofu-eaters aside, I don't have enough information to form an opinion on the OP with the alleged Ph.D. (Well, I have no idea what he eats either).

Point is, a consulting arborist, according to ASCA anyway, is supposed to provide reports that provide options for risk management; it is then up to the homeowner to act on one or more that they prefer. IMHO, the arborist carrying out the work also has a professional duty to perform it (even if it was scoped out by others) at the same level of professionalism that is typical of others like himself. That may include pointing out an unsafe situation, or prescription, even if it is at odds with the homeowner, his boss, or that consultant. The arborist can choose to do this or not.

At any rate, if a casualty occurs (human or property), everyone will get sued. That is why you carry insurance. It helps in the long run to reduce your own liability, if you want to survive physically, as well as have a reputation, the ability to buy reasonably priced insurance, as well as have a business or job. The arborist's options even include walking if the HO or OP can't agree on the specs of a job that meet your standards of care.

 

[Bermie]

What I read in this story is everybody wants to milke the HO's of $$$ and kiss their ass. I have worked with a few rich people (read billions) and they really appreciate a straight forward answer, if you can talk to the powers that be and not just a bunch of "yes men" handlers.

Yup...I do work for a multi-billionaire, sorry no name dropping, privacy is scarce these days...I got the job because they got tired of being jacked about by landscape companies looking to get as much $$ out of them as possible. Been doing their trees for three years now, basically told by the manager once she figured I knew what I was doing...job's your's, don't pad the bill and don't F*&^ anything up. Love'em!
The mega rich seen to be past the 'hump' of the merely rich or wealthy who want to micro manage you on a job, they know what's what and once you've 'passed' they leave you to get on with the job they are paying you to be the expert to do. Very similar to the 'joe ordinary' who will hire you even if you are more expensive because they have figured out you know what you're doing, and give them value for money, not a smash and crash job for cheap.

 

[ropensaddle]

Yup...I do work for a multi-billionaire, sorry no name dropping, privacy is scarce these days...I got the job because they got tired of being jacked about by landscape companies looking to get as much $$ out of them as possible. Been doing their trees for three years now, basically told by the manager once she figured I knew what I was doing...job's your's, don't pad the bill and don't F*&^ anything up. Love'em!
The mega rich seen to be past the 'hump' of the merely rich or wealthy who want to micro manage you on a job, they know what's what and once you've 'passed' they leave you to get on with the job they are paying to to be the expert to do. Very similar to the 'joe ordinary' who will hire you even if you are more expensive because they have figured out you know what you're doing, and give them value for money, not a smash and crash job for cheap.

Yup interesting folks usually when you get to know them! I charge the same for them as I do for anyone and they know I ain't getting rich! One of my better off customers has saved my hide a time or two by creating work and I'm always grateful! Some may not be billionaires per say but are worth more than billions in assets etc.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Yup...I do work for a multi-billionaire, sorry no name dropping, privacy is scarce these days...I got the job because they got tired of being jacked about by landscape companies looking to get as much $$ out of them as possible. Been doing their trees for three years now, basically told by the manager once she figured I knew what I was doing...job's your's, don't pad the bill and don't F*&^ anything up. Love'em!
The mega rich seen to be past the 'hump' of the merely rich or wealthy who want to micro manage you on a job, they know what's what and once you've 'passed' they leave you to get on with the job they are paying to to be the expert to do. Very similar to the 'joe ordinary' who will hire you even if you are more expensive because they have figured out you know what you're doing, and give them value for money, not a smash and crash job for cheap.

I agree, we have an HOA in Del Mar that we have been taken care of since 2004,,they don't go out to bid. They could, but they know what they get for the low bid.
Jeff

 

[flushcut]

And you have not worked for any billionaires. There are only 425 bllionaires in the states, and if I read your post correctly as 'billions' meaning having more than one billion, the number is significantly reduced. You have not worked for even one of these people, let alone a few of them. I'm willing to retract that statement if you'd care to name names, otherwise you may wish to remove the 'billions' from your claim.

Shaun

Yep multi billion. I can not mention any names as I respect their privacy, but if you really want you can do a search as to who lives on Lake Geneva WI be my guest. Read some really old and new Chicago money.

 

[Zale]

Depending in what part of the country you work in, working for a billionaire is not unrealistic. Just got to be in the right area.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Recently did a risk/health assessment of a huge, highly defective catalpa in Oregon, wedged in the parking strip in a busy section of a city. The homeowner was out there a lot of the time and he had some opinions (contrasting with my own) that I discussed with him. I remained open and mainly listened. No point in telling the customer that he is wrong; that is simply likely to make him either mad or clam up. And I needed to get some context on past conditions and tree care as part of the assessment.

I found out:

He had poured an unspecified fungicide on the side of the tree to "treat" a conk he observed there
He had a tree service fertilize the tree by ground injection in the past
He proudly showed me the prop under a side trunk which I estimated at 1,500 pounds: 8 ft. 4x4 screwed AND nailed to a prefab deck footing, and toe-nailed with lags to the bottom of the trunk.

Hmmm

Went on to provide his report with rec. to do various things, and got the contract to prune the tree and others as well. A little tact goes a long way.

I did follow his wishes to only cut dead wood from the catalpa (even though that lateral sub-trunk needed some end-weight removed) and DID NOT paint my cuts, as he initially wanted done. I explained about that. My report recommends re-doing the prop with one much more up to spec, adding a Cobra support system, and lightening up the sub-trunk.

About the "spec" for the prop --- that is an interesting question if anyone wants to go on about that in a new thread.

 

[treeseer]

He told me to try and remove as much weight as I could doing small pruning cuts.

So did you? sounds like you had the latitude to reduce sprawl and mitigate risk to a reasonable level. i agree that 14" stem could have come off, but small cuts could have subordinated it. One could even say 14" is small; relative to the trunk anyway...

Adjust the specs you get to fit the tree. If they respect your skill they should accept your decisions up there.

Where on the trunk is that crack? Active failure is not to be blown off--the PhD consultant needs to see that.

"Point is, a consulting arborist, according to ASCA anyway, is supposed to provide reports that provide options for risk management"

Where did you hear this? I said that to ASCAns about 3,000 times, but many still ass-u-me they ought to be making a Recommendation. So I gave up and quit ASCA.

" IMHO, the arborist carrying out the work also has a professional duty to perform it (even if it was scoped out by others) at the same level of professionalism that is typical of others like himself. That may include pointing out an unsafe situation, or prescription, even if it is at odds with the homeowner, his boss, or that consultant. The arborist can choose to do this or not."

True--not just opinion, but Standard Practice per A300.

re the propping--start a thread w pics. too late for A300 revision in 2013, gotta wait til 2018!

 

[TreeGuyHR]

So did you? sounds like you had the latitude to reduce sprawl and mitigate risk to a reasonable level. i agree that 14" stem could have come off, but small cuts could have subordinated it. One could even say 14" is small; relative to the trunk anyway...
Clarification: I collected the info for the assessment during the pruning job (rode the basket in the lift truck and also used it to tie into the tree and look around) as well as in two later visits. I signed a contract to do both on the initial scoping visit. Not ideal, but that is how it unfolded. Oh, wait a minute -- you are referring to the pine here, right?

Adjust the specs you get to fit the tree. If they respect your skill they should accept your decisions up there.

Where on the trunk is that crack? Active failure is not to be blown off--the PhD consultant needs to see that.

"Point is, a consulting arborist, according to ASCA anyway, is supposed to provide reports that provide options for risk management"

Where did you hear this? I said that to ASCAns about 3,000 times, but many still ass-u-me they ought to be making a Recommendation. So I gave up and quit ASCA.
It is right in Dunster 2009 -- the manual recently used in the ISA Certified Risk Assessor course. The book suggests making a list of options to reduce risk as well as making a recommendation -- as in "I recommend picking option # 3" -- is OK.

" IMHO, the arborist carrying out the work also has a professional duty to perform it (even if it was scoped out by others) at the same level of professionalism that is typical of others like himself. That may include pointing out an unsafe situation, or prescription, even if it is at odds with the homeowner, his boss, or that consultant. The arborist can choose to do this or not."

True--not just opinion, but Standard Practice per A300.

re the propping--start a thread w pics. too late for A300 revision in 2013, gotta wait til 2018!

Will do.

 

[TreeGuyHR]

Will do.

Dang. Utterly screwed up the split up and quote with comment in between process. It's all there somewhere.