Elux turbo injection

[Joey P]

You know.....I know that a lot of people on here like to bust balls and give people a hard time......but some of the comments made here toward Glens are not called for. He was simply asking a question.....which in turn turned into a really good brainstorm and debate. I enjoyed reading it. Then came Rocky and Jokers....who have added very little to the subject at hand and have more or less just put down Glens.

God for bid someone start a post out of a curiosity that he has and want people to discuss or debate it. If you don't want to grab your stop watch and go try it out then don't.......no reason to tell Glens to go get a life....or anything else like that for that matter.......it was just uncalled for.

 

[jokers]

Hey Joey, if you had been around this site longer you would realize that it is my job to kick sand on Glen and he takes it in stride, sometimes even kicking back. He has made many good points over time because he is an intelligent man, but he has also tried to make many contrived pro Stihl, anti Husky points and I`m not buying them. Especially from anyone who has never operated a Husky never mind over a long enough period of time to have a valid opinion regarding Husky`s merits or durability. We have been hashing this Air Injection/Turbo thing since Glen arrived here. Even by rereading this whole thread will you see that he clings tenanciously to someone`s assertion(at a prior time) that "Turbo" is implying some performance benefit when virtually everyone who weighed in on this topic pointed out to Glen that it is merely a name referencing an air filtration system. Don`t be fooled, he knows that.

Now for you Joey, if you think that my post, other than the Glen jabs, added little, then you have just exposed the fact that you don`t understand what`s going on or how physics is working here. I`m sure that I`m not the only person thinking this, and frankly I`m disappointed because after all you did post that you came here to help us.

Glen
We have some of those vacuum cleaners, we call them "super suckers" because everyone forgot the name brand, and they do work quite nicely, especially when you consider that we primarily used Wilden M-8s and Sandpipers before.

I`ll probably perform your experiment but I can`t say when. First I have to make a friend.

Russ

 

[ricksvar]

Hi Jokers,

I did the last experiment when Glens brought up this subject.Good to hear you're probably willing to jump in the water and perform the tests.

Who knows,somebody may be willing to make a few cut with a Stihl(filter cover removed)to see if there is noticeable change in performance.

All my saws are asleep right now and I don't want to disturb them

Regards to everyone,
Rick

 

[Crofter]

Quibbling Eh?

I can see that Glens is no longer anywhere near having the monopoly on quibbling!
What this all boils down to is the question of whether or not the air intake system on Hsky/ Jsred adds any, even if miniscule pressure to the air box. A low reading vacuum guage tapped into these as well as Stihl saws would settle the basic question being asked. From one end to the other of the turbo air cleaning system there will be a range of pressures from negative to positive; depending on where the air flow to the filter is tapped will determine the resulting relative pressure. I would not be surprised if it were slightly negative.
Cyclonic precleaning elements, (both active and passive) in air intake systems and their use in classifying fine materials is not unique to Electrolux.

Contrary to popular belief, vacuum does not "suck".

Quibbling Frank

 

[tony marks]

dang ,,u guys even quibble like men.
theres another forum[not on aborist site] where they do what ever they do,, like children arguing about whos daddy is biggest.. the contrast is really amazin.

 

[Newfie]

"I haven't missed a thing yet, newfie, and how the hell can one be off-topic while setting up their own post?"

Off topic? Thread title Elux turbo injection, followed by a 3 paragraph synopsis of your chainsaw predilections. I figured you missed the point out of the starting gate when you asked your question assuming "air injection" was anything but an air cleaner thing.

Geez, don't forget to smile and laugh once in a while.


Now to go slightly off topic, at what point does all of this performance minutia become completely irrelevant because there is still a liquored-up retard using the saw? (no, not you Glens)



I'm done quibbling.

 

[jokers]

Frank
I have a nice slack tube manometer that reads pressure and vacuum in inches of water column, seems it would be the perfect instrument for this test, but I`ll be darned if I`m going to drill holes in any of my filter covers for this little experiment. Maybe if Glen wants to send me a sacrificial filter cover we work together on this collection of useful info, LOL.

Russ

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've always just looked at it like that such systems would logically supply an easier intake supply of warm dry air. And a wondorous innovation of using existing forces to aid each other. The whole swirl of air to keep debris off the breathing element so that it runs peak longer is a vacumn cleaning science IMLHO; along with the theorizing that the force of a cyclone action (low pressure 'vuccumn' swirl, with aimed, focused easy relief of supplied air?) can can draw more than the original vaccum/low pressure 'container'.

i'd think that any appreciable pressure would find easier releif before pressurizing airbox, if not 'leaking' out of airbox rather than compressing into carb? So, biggest benefit would be clean, dry, warm air more easily available, than without system?

Orrrr something like that.....
:alien:

 

[oakman]

here's a saw to do some testing with. and YES it is a turbo, the header even says it is. did i say "header"? mmm....... headers AND a turbo, i wouldn't mind drilling a few holes in it myself.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2345275833&category=20538

 

[glens]

One doesn't have to search the archives for some kind of statement which would lead me to believe that the maker of that statement might seem to think the filtering system offers a boost to the engine while it's doing it's thing.  Maybe this is all a result of market-speak and I'm over-analyzing it, but even in this thread, we've got Dennis saying air is forced into the airbox with the system.  Now to me, that implies a boost, though not necessarily one strong enough to register a positive pressure in the airbox on a running saw, but still, if it were the case, more air/fuel would enter the crankcase on each intake/compression stroke than if that action alone were responsible for getting air into the airbox.  Using a manometer might prove beneficial in understanding just exactly what's going on, but I'd think the timed cuts back-to-back with the same wood, chain, atmospheric conditions, etc. would be entirely sufficient for a quick test.

Earlier I'd suggested maybe seeing if there were an air stream flowing one way or the other through the duct by using smoke, (and thanks again, Rick, for trying it) but that probably isn't very reliable what with all that's going on.&nbsp; If the timed-cut test doesn't give me the answer I want, then maybe I'll spring for an air cover to mount measuring points to.&nbsp; <font face="fixed">:<tt>)</tt></font>

I want to reiterate that I think in order to "work" as it appears to be designed, the carb would have to pull just the littlest bit harder than it otherwise would, all the same as if there were a slightly more restrictive air filter.&nbsp; But in this (supposed) case, the restriction is relatively constant and can be figured into the tuning as a constant.

Again, I think this is so because the fanned air would have to blow more across the duct opening than into it to avoid blowing dust into it, and this air moving quickly across the opening (and around the outside of the duct) would create a lower pressure area than that inside the duct.&nbsp; Like Frank said, though, "miniscule".&nbsp; The result would be (without the carb pulling more strongly on the other end) that there would be a slight reverse flow in the duct.

Maybe the ultimate test of the system would be to remove the conrod, seal up the intake port, drill a small hole in the top of the airbox cover, and power the crank from the clutch side.&nbsp; Then a smoldering twig or something could be held near the hole and it would be evident if there were a positive or negative influence on the airbox by the system.

Probably the timed cuts would be good enough...

Russ, regarding the diaphragm pumps, your mentioning them reminded me of the time I and another mechanic had to go out to one of the ash handling buildings to get a sump pump working again.&nbsp; The high ash content of the water would routinely erode the impellers/volutes of the pumps and they'd put an air operated diaphragm pump out there with it's intake hose dropped into the pit.&nbsp; It had quit working so we brought another out and disassembled the first one to fix it.&nbsp; It had "sucked" a heavy raincoat through about 15' of 2" (or maybe 3", it's coming up on 20 years ago) line and (somewhat) into one of the chambers!

Newfie, I usually have a stupid grin on my face, but your post (like Weatherby's the other day) for some reason seemed a bit too unfriendly for my taste.&nbsp; I'm not offended, mind you, but both of them seemed to be busting my balls, though not directly to my face.&nbsp; It was like I was being excluded from the group and "put down" to them.&nbsp; I prefer being "confronted" directly like Russ does (if it has to happen, that is).&nbsp; I mostly ignore Brian.

Glen

 

[stihltech]

turbo

OK, I know some of you work on diesels with turbos. Th eminuit you lose a seal between the turbo and the intake, you lose power. It is a sealed system. Without a pressure buildup, there is no power.

That said, I do not believe the air box is sealed. Where would the sawdust go? It would just build up and you would have to stop and dump it out. Any turbo I have seen sucks the air through the air filter.

Even a hood scoop on a car has to be sealed to the air cleaner to have any real effect.

There, more fodder the fire. Have fun.

 

[Newfie]

Glens,

Guess I did come across a little nasty, but not my intention. Ball-busting was definitely the intention. Sorry to make you feel excluded. I'll be sure to bust your balls properly next time.

 

[Dennis]

While I have never claimed "more power" from the "turbo" systems, I will say that the filter does stay cleaner longer..plain and simple.

When I say air is forced into the airbox, I am saying that they are using the wind created by the flywheel, and pushing it into a tube which leads to the airbox....I don't know what else to call it except "forced".

There is however, an easy test....take a saw...372 for example, make your timed cuts...put the winter kit in it...which blocks off the air injection...its a small black plastic piece...takes about 10 minutes to change...(don't forget take out the plug that is on the other side of the top cover so you can get air)...and make more timed cuts.

 

[glens]

Hey Dennis.

Yeah, I know, you were saying that the air is forced into the airbox while you were explaining that it's only a filter-kept-clean device.&nbsp; As well did many others in this thread.&nbsp; I also know that there's no way the fan can keep up with the (intake) flow needed by the saw, especially since the bulk of the discharge is sent to cool the cylinder, so any (charging) benefit that may be obtained is not across the board.&nbsp; (As I understand it, the reason "free" power can be obtained with an exhaust-gas-driven turbine running an intake fan is because the exhaust gas is hotter [thus more voluminous] than the combustion air it's pushing - if both sides were the same temperature gas it would be a net loss due to inefficiencies and frictional losses in the turbine assembly. [Do you think that the use of a turbine to charge the intake has anything to do with the term "turbocharge"?])

I guess the thing I'm ultimately trying to determine is whether the common description of the system is truly acceptable to use or not.&nbsp; I mean, if the system does not pressurize the airbox in any relative way then maybe it would be best not to say that the air is forced or blown in, wouldn't you agree?&nbsp; It certainly can lead to false assumptions.&nbsp;

Then again, maybe I'm wrong in mine...

Here's what I understand about it:<ul><li>No dust is introduced ("blown in") to the airbox</li><li>There is no opening in the airbox to relieve excess pressure or to act as a dust "drain" (should any be introduced).</li></ul>I guess there may be other factors, but those are the main two.&nbsp; I suppose it's possible that I'm looking at it too simply, and that particles <i>could</i> be excluded from the mix while a net positive pressure is supplied to the airbox.&nbsp; That's really what I'm trying to determine.

I threw the Stihl/Husky stuff out at the first but never really used it.&nbsp; It should be evident that this thread is not really about the rivalry or about the merits of the system, but mainly about "how exactly does it work?".&nbsp; Frank saw right through all the dressing and got to the heart -- good job, Frank.

The test with the winterizing kit would be a good third setup to time.

If the saw runs more poorly without the airbox cover in place, it would be interesting to know whether it had become lean or rich as a result, or if it's just that there's more work being done by the upward motion of the piston.

Thanks, everyone, for all the discussion; and maybe the help.

Glen

 

[Weatherby]

Originally posted by glens
<ul><li>No dust is introduced ("blown in") to the airbox

I would have to say that fine dust still makes it into the airbox of Elux saws through the air injection, but the larger chips rarely do. The filter still gets clogged, but just not with the bigger particles I see on my Stihl saws.

I dont think I ever thought this air injection lead to increased power output, merely better filtering effects. I guess uninformed homeowners could see it differently. Glens, I still have no problem with you, and I doubt that im part of any group, but if you let me play with your saws, you can be in mine.

Rob

 

[Jacob J.]

Howdy- jokers made a comment about the fine "bug" dust, and the air injection only intensifies the problem in dusty or dry conditions. This is why you don't want to run the "silk" mesh type winter-style air filter in the summer- the bug dust eats its way through that silk mesh. I ran my 371 today with the filter cover on and off, noticeable loss in power with the cover off.

 

[Crofter]

Jacob J. : I am curious. You said there was a noticeable loss of power with the cover off. Could you try to see if readjusting the carb with the cover off would return the power. From the adjustments necessary, could you tell whether removing the cover made the mixture leaner or richer. If that were a Stihl, the "intellicarb" would have outsmarted you and you'd never know the difference! LOL!

Interesting, maybe you are close to the answer of this turbo induction riddle.

Frank

 

[Jacob J.]

Hey Frank-

You can tune the carb to a point where the saw runs fine, but it still has a noticeable loss of oomph, which leads me to believe I should graft this air injection set-up onto all of my Stihls and Poulans just to see what the differences really are.

With the cover off the saw runs a little rich.

 

[Crofter]

Jacob J; Rich with the cover off eh? Makes me think that the airbox might be slightly pressurised then. Not sure of my logic in this but seems like more pressure drop across the venturi if the engine is working a bit harder to draw in the air instead of being assisted. I will have a look at my 365 Husky and seewhether it looks like the air may be tapped at a plus or minus pressure point. Might have to get Jokers to put his manometer on it.

Frank

 

[Jacob J.]

The saw definitely ran rich, visible clouds of blue smoke choked out my cutting partner, he's even bought a canary for the crummy now.