Engineered Fuel vs E-Free Pump Mix

[GrizG]

So, I've been on the fence about using engineered fuel (although I haven't used much in my lifetime...maybe only a gallon). I have heard it makes your saw run more hours and it burns cleaner, etc.

I was just thinking a little bit ago: "What does it cost to run engineered fuel instead of pump e-free mix?"

I did some rough math. Here's what I figured.

-Using a 361 as a baseline...

-Assuming an average pro saw runs for 2000 hours (If ran well, I imagine it will last longer):

-E-free pump gas ($5/gallon) + Mix @45:1 ($2/gallon): ~$7/gallon

-Tru-Fuel per gallon: ~$30

-A 361 holds 2.9 cups which is .18125 gallons. Based on loose information from this thread, I am assuming a conservative estimate of 2 tanks of fuel/hour of work.

Pump Mix Cost: 2000 hours * .3625 gallons/hour * $7/gallon = $5075 in fuel over the life of the saw

Tru-Fuel Cost: 2000hours * .3625 gallons/hour * $30/gallon = $21750 in fuel over the life of the saw

I can buy almost 14 MS462s with the cost savings by using my own mix over using engineered fuel.

The only advantages engineered fuel may have is increasing horsepower of the saw by some undefinable amount and being able to store for longer. It just doesn't even come close to being worth it in my book. If you want more power, just port your saw. The lifespan decrease you may or may not get by increasing the horsies from porting will be paid in gas savings.

Anyway, I can go into more specifics with my math and reasoning, if anyone wants. I tried by best to give conservative estimates to give Tru-fuel the best chance it could. For example, it only costs me $4/gallon for E-free pump gas and maybe only $1.50 max for mix per gallon, but I wanted to account for people who can't get it as cheap. I'll be honest and say I don't know if the 2000 hours lifespan is 100% accurate. That's why I'll include new calculations for 1000 and 500 hours below...

Pump Mix Cost (1000 hours): $2537.50
Tru-Fuel Cost (1000 hours): $10,875.00

Pump Mix Cost (500 hours): $1268.75
Tru-Fuel Cost (500 hours): $5437.50

And here's a super liberal estimate in favor of Tru-fuel, assuming you can find Tru-fuel for $15/gallon and your saw only runs 500 hours...

Pump Mix Cost (500 hours): $1268.75
Tru-Fuel Cost (500 hours @$15/gallon): $2718.75

Even with that super extreme math, you can still buy a whole new 462 with the fuel savings by using pump gas.

I'm open to corrections/clarifications. I'm doing this math late at night, so I'm tired, lol.

I think the main takeaway is this: your saw is going to run way more money in the way of fuel than your saw costs, many times over.

I've looked at this too and my numbers are about the same as yours. Depending on gas, mix-oil and pre-mix prices over time the pre-mix, regardless of brand, has been running 5 to 6 times what I pay by mixing it myself with premium non-ethanol gasoline and synthetic mix oil. My son works in a shop that sells a lot of chainsaw related consumables (mix and bar oil, chains, bars, wedges, files, etc.). He has professional customers who buy the pre-mix in 5 gallon pails (4.5 gal??). They simply don't care about the cost... they charge a lot of money for their work and like not having to mix. A surprising number don't sharpen chains either, they buy a new one and some even have the shop install them.... "throw the old one away." For those guys and the "gallon a year" users pre-mix probably makes sense... For someone like me who still runs 20+ gallons a year through chain saws, trimmers, edgers, blowers, hedge clippers and pole saws it doesn't make sense as I'm footing the bill! It made even less sense when I was going through a couple gallons a week in my saws dealing with dead ash trees. Though the synthetic mix oil has stabilizers in it, I use fuel up fast enough that I don't worry about stale fuel.

 

[GrizG]

It's probably the number I am least sure about, so I also did calculations for 500 hours, which is easily attainable under professional use.

My reasoning is this: a large company will usually run a 462 (or whatever pro saw) for at least 1 1/2 years before replacing it. Assuming a 50 hour work week (which, we know, we often do much more), that means about 3750 hours of use a year, assuming you take 2 weeks off a year.

Now, we know our saw isn't running all the time, so let's cut that number in half. 1875 hours over it's time with a pro company.

For reference, 500 hours would only be about 20 weeks/4.5 months.

This doesn't take into account that many pro companies usually get rid of saws simply because they start having problems starting and it just becomes a hassle (at least that was the reasoning for one of the tree-work business owners I worked for). They could probably do a good tune up and get them running well again. Even if that wasn't the case, these saws get thrown around and abused by the workers. I think 2000 hours for a professional who cares about his saws is definitely feasible.

Regardless, even with a tiny 500 hour runtime, the numbers don't lie; it's much too costly to run engineered fuel.

From what I see and hear in the saw shops, many of the pro saws die from abuse rather than use... They end up run over by equipment (skidders and skid steers seem popular), dropped, crushed by trees, etc... My son tells me that the most abused professional Stihl equipment he sees are top handle saws and cutoff saws. Those get replaced every year if not sooner because they were abused and/or neglected to death. The homeowners.... often the failure to run problem is stale fuel related but the lack of regular use kills them in other ways such as seals drying out and causing air leaks... dull chains seem to the most common killer as users force the saws.

P.S. I no sooner posted this and a related YouTube notice came in...

 

[Ethobling]

When I bought my MS462 about a year ago I bought four cans of Trufuel for it. After I ran them through the saw I started mixing my own from the ethanol free 93 octane pump at the local fuel distribution center which I pass by almost every day so I don't have to go out of the way to get it. I mix it a gallon at a time and pour it into the Trufuel canisters, that way I only have to open a quart at a time. In my opinion the plastic gas cans have more to do with fuel going bad than the fuel itself. The used Trufuel cans seal up tight and to me are much better for storage. I don't go through much fuel and I feel a lot better about having it sitting around for a few months in the metal Trufuel cans than in a plastic jug.

Very good point on the plastic cans. I recently came to the same theory, so I'm currently going through the process of transferring my Stabilized E0 Gas from plastic drums to metal drums. I bet they will last a lot longer, since plastic tends to leach and deteriorate, unlike steel (excluding rust).

 

[Ethobling]

I've looked at this too and my numbers are about the same as yours. Depending on gas, mix-oil and pre-mix prices over time the pre-mix, regardless of brand, has been running 5 to 6 times what I pay by mixing it myself with premium non-ethanol gasoline and synthetic mix oil. My son works in a shop that sells a lot of chainsaw related consumables (mix and bar oil, chains, bars, wedges, files, etc.). He has professional customers who buy the pre-mix in 5 gallon pails (4.5 gal??). They simply don't care about the cost... they charge a lot of money for their work and like not having to mix. A surprising number don't sharpen chains either, they buy a new one and some even have the shop install them.... "throw the old one away." For those guys and the "gallon a year" users pre-mix probably makes sense... For someone like me who still runs 20+ gallons a year through chain saws, trimmers, edgers, blowers, hedge clippers and pole saws it doesn't make sense as I'm footing the bill! It made even less sense when I was going through a couple gallons a week in my saws dealing with dead ash trees. Though the synthetic mix oil has stabilizers in it, I use fuel up fast enough that I don't worry about stale fuel.

Yeah, it still blows my mind people just use a chain once and throw it away. I had (have, still?) a neighbor who I talked to years ago about chains. I mentioned I was learning how to hand file chainsaw chains (this was when I was young and new to chainsaws). He was dumbfounded you could even reuse a chain by sharpening. He had been throwing out chains every time they got dull and buying a new one.

On your point on mix: I blew through 5 gallons of gas on one job; it's the stump in my profile picture. Granted, probably 1/2 of the gas used was to mill it, but still, that's $100+ of fuel if I used TruFuel! I only charged $400 for the job (since it was a neighbor and I was getting lumber out of it), so that would have really eaten into my profits.

I'm no expert, but I think the best way to succeed in a tree business is to start off minimizing cost you have to pass down to the customer. Mixing your own gas is one of those ways.

 

[GrizG]

Yeah, it still blows my mind people just use a chain once and throw it away. I had (have, still?) a neighbor who I talked to years ago about chains. I mentioned I was learning how to hand file chainsaw chains (this was when I was young and new to chainsaws). He was dumbfounded you could even reuse a chain by sharpening. He had been throwing out chains every time they got dull and buying a new one.

On your point on mix: I blew through 5 gallons of gas on one job; it's the stump in my profile picture. Granted, probably 1/2 of the gas used was to mill it, but still, that's $100+ of fuel if I used TruFuel! I only charged $400 for the job (since it was a neighbor and I was getting lumber out of it), so that would have really eaten into my profits.

I'm no expert, but I think the best way to succeed in a tree business is to start off minimizing cost you have to pass down to the customer. Mixing your own gas is one of those ways.

Yeah... milling does burn through fuel and bar oil and chains. The chain used to mill the 30" ash in my avatar needed to be sharpened after each slab...

 

[maowwg]

Engineered fuel is great for the emergency chainsaw that lives at my cabin for fallen trees blocking the drive way. It’s also great for my two cycle generator. Both of which are almost never run, but require relatively small amounts of long term stored fuel.

It’s also awesome for flushing saws run with ethanol gas mix prior to storage. We are in an ethanol zone. Nearest non-ethanol gas is 20 miles away and is still perishable. Not worth the time and gas to get better gas. We also have Emerald Ash so I didn’t do quite the detailed math you did, but quickly figured out engineered fuel is very expensive.

So my “good saws” are run with cheaper mixed ethanol gas for large projects (multiple hours of cutting) and immediately drained at day end. The very last tank for the day is engineered fuel, drained again and stored empty with all traces of ethanol flushed out. This limits ethanol exposure to a couple hours.

For small or quick projects, I keep a junk saw, a home owner grade muffler mod Poulan is used. It’s often ridden hard and put away “wet” meaning back on the shelf with a full tank a stabilized ethanol gas mix. After 3 months I dump my mix can and drain the tank into the lawnmower and that gas gets used. I don’t concern myself with ethanol damage to this saw’s fuel system. This saw used cost me what a gallon of engineered fuel cost and I can do new lines, primer bulb and metering diaphragm for the cost of a quart or two of engineered fuel. This saw proved the author’s point, engineered fuel is sometimes more expensive than saws.

The conclusion being: For me it’s not a choice to use engineered fuel or mixed gas for best savings. It’s a “use only as much engineered fuel as necessary, but as little as possible”

 

[SteveSr]

For those of you having a hard time finding E-free gas... Have you tried:

https://www.pure-gas.org/

 

[sean donato]

Yes, they are hit and miss. Best off calling the station and asking if they actually have e-free before running out just to find out they don't have it.

 

[Mad Professor]

100LL is $6/gal and stored in metal lasts years mixed.

 

[maowwg]

Engineered fuel is great for the emergency chainsaw that lives at my cabin for fallen trees blocking the drive way. It’s also great for my two cycle generator. Both of which are almost never run, but require relatively small amounts of long term stored fuel.

It’s also awesome for flushing saws run with ethanol gas mix prior to storage. We are in an ethanol zone. Nearest non-ethanol gas is 20 miles away and is still perishable. Not worth the time and gas to get better gas. We also have Emerald Ash so I didn’t do quite the detailed math you did, but quickly figured out engineered fuel is very expensive.

So my “good saws” are run with cheaper mixed ethanol gas for large projects (multiple hours of cutting) and immediately drained at day end. The very last tank for the day is engineered fuel, drained again and stored empty with all traces of ethanol flushed out. This limits ethanol exposure to a couple hours.

For small or quick projects, I keep a junk saw, a home owner grade muffler mod Poulan is used. It’s often ridden hard and put away “wet” meaning back on the shelf with a full tank a stabilized ethanol gas mix. After 3 months I dump my mix can and drain the tank into the lawnmower and that gas gets used. I don’t concern myself with ethanol damage to this saw’s fuel system. This saw used cost me what a gallon of engineered fuel cost and I can do new lines, primer bulb and metering diaphragm for the cost of a quart or two of engineered fuel. This saw proved the author’s point, engineered fuel is sometimes more expensive than saws.

The conclusion being: For me it’s not a choice to use engineered fuel or mixed gas for best savings. It’s a “use only as much engineered fuel as necessary, but as little as possible”

 

[Bike_Pilot]

I keep 110 octane Sunoco mixed with motorex 44:1 around to fuel the dirt bikes and tend to put that in the saws and most everything else in the garage that's not diesel. It seems to last well and be pretty stable. It's $10/gal for the fuel at the local drag strip.

 

[Husky77]

I have only been using Aspen or Husqvarna (they are both the same) recently started buying it straight and adding my own oil. Yes I know it is expensive if your cutting a lot of timber but for me it works out fine. I dont use the saws for work these days so they spend a lot of time sat on the shelf, but when I want them they start and run just as good as when I used them last time, they are always stored with fuel in them it does not go off and cause the many problems petrol does and I never have to waste fuel by mixing too much and it going off. To me it is worth while but I know to others they will be waving their arms around saying they been using petrol for years and nothing wrong with it. Fine you carry on, I will never go back to the stinking stuff that makes your head ache if your cutting in a place the fumes dont clear, yes I been there and done that too. And a good reason to change to alkylate

 

[bwalker]

100LL is $6/gal and stored in metal lasts years mixed.

That's true. It also impares your cognitive ability when your breath the fumes...

 

[jellyroll]

Here i am running 87 E5,E10.
Run everything dry when i done and never had a problem.

 

[Captain Bruce]

Canned fuel has proven to be mixed so lean, as per the EPA reg's followed, and mandates for 50:1 across the board for carbs are a signal. We woodsmiths have heard it for quite some time. Buy Premium fuel. Buy quality 2-cycle oil. Mix heavy at 40:1. Enjoy your engines for ever.

The concern about cost for a milling operation is nonsense. That lumber is selling for 4 times its costs.....and its a write - off.

 

[husqvarna257]

I use premix for back up for saws. I also run it in my 4 stroke weed Wacker that I run 4 times a year or so to clear brush from the driveway. The weed Wacker fires up better on premix so it's not worth using pump fuel.

 

[cdherman]

I'm lucky I guess that E free gas is pretty available in Kansas City. BUT a couple points:

-- it gets used less than other gas. I got a bad batch once. Was either bad in the tank or bad in the lines. Dunno, but after the SECOND generator refused to start in an emergency, I suspected the gas and was correct. So now, I use a station that uses the SAME flexible line for E10, 87, 89 and the Premium ethanol free. I always dump the first 2 gallons into my vehicle, and then fill my containers with the now pure ethanol free gas.

-- Get a proper Eagle metal gasoline container. These are the best. Metal, as others have alluded to, but more important, in a fire, a metal Eagle will vent off the boiling gas and never blow. Yes, there will be a plume of flames, BUT what kills a firefighter is a closed tank of gasoline that explodes suddenly. Please do not store gas in unvented metal containers, or plastic for that matter.

 

[Ethobling]

I'm lucky I guess that E free gas is pretty available in Kansas City. BUT a couple points:

-- it gets used less than other gas. I got a bad batch once. Was either bad in the tank or bad in the lines. Dunno, but after the SECOND generator refused to start in an emergency, I suspected the gas and was correct. So now, I use a station that uses the SAME flexible line for E10, 87, 89 and the Premium ethanol free. I always dump the first 2 gallons into my vehicle, and then fill my containers with the now pure ethanol free gas.

-- Get a proper Eagle metal gasoline container. These are the best. Metal, as others have alluded to, but more important, in a fire, a metal Eagle will vent off the boiling gas and never blow. Yes, there will be a plume of flames, BUT what kills a firefighter is a closed tank of gasoline that explodes suddenly. Please do not store gas in unvented metal containers, or plastic for that matter.

I really want to get a few Eagle containers, or at least some other metal high-quality cans. Project Farm did a video testing all different cans, so I'll have to rewatch that at some point.

I am blessed and also have a station nearby that carries E-free. Unlike yours, however, it stays fresh, since a fair number of people use it. E-free seems to be popular enough around here that there's at least 3 stations within 10 miles that carry it, and I'm not even talking about going in-town.

 

[sean donato]

I'm lucky I guess that E free gas is pretty available in Kansas City. BUT a couple points:

-- it gets used less than other gas. I got a bad batch once. Was either bad in the tank or bad in the lines. Dunno, but after the SECOND generator refused to start in an emergency, I suspected the gas and was correct. So now, I use a station that uses the SAME flexible line for E10, 87, 89 and the Premium ethanol free. I always dump the first 2 gallons into my vehicle, and then fill my containers with the now pure ethanol free gas.

-- Get a proper Eagle metal gasoline container. These are the best. Metal, as others have alluded to, but more important, in a fire, a metal Eagle will vent off the boiling gas and never blow. Yes, there will be a plume of flames, BUT what kills a firefighter is a closed tank of gasoline that explodes suddenly. Please do not store gas in unvented metal containers, or plastic for that matter.

Going by your last paragraph you should have all your fuel cans stored in an explosion proof cabinet too. all fuel cans go through fire testing that carry a dot, ul, and Osha certification. Which nears they meet minimum requirements for fire ratings among others. Nato cans pose no more risk of explosion then Eagle cans, or any other fuel can.

 

[sb47]

So, I've been on the fence about using engineered fuel (although I haven't used much in my lifetime...maybe only a gallon). I have heard it makes your saw run more hours and it burns cleaner, etc.

I was just thinking a little bit ago: "What does it cost to run engineered fuel instead of pump e-free mix?"

I did some rough math. Here's what I figured.

-Using a 361 as a baseline...

-Assuming an average pro saw runs for 2000 hours (If ran well, I imagine it will last longer):

-E-free pump gas ($5/gallon) + Mix @45:1 ($2/gallon): ~$7/gallon

-Tru-Fuel per gallon: ~$30

-A 361 holds 2.9 cups which is .18125 gallons. Based on loose information from this thread, I am assuming a conservative estimate of 2 tanks of fuel/hour of work.

Pump Mix Cost: 2000 hours * .3625 gallons/hour * $7/gallon = $5075 in fuel over the life of the saw

Tru-Fuel Cost: 2000hours * .3625 gallons/hour * $30/gallon = $21750 in fuel over the life of the saw

I can buy almost 14 MS462s with the cost savings by using my own mix over using engineered fuel.

The only advantages engineered fuel may have is increasing horsepower of the saw by some undefinable amount and being able to store for longer. It just doesn't even come close to being worth it in my book. If you want more power, just port your saw. The lifespan decrease you may or may not get by increasing the horsies from porting will be paid in gas savings.

Anyway, I can go into more specifics with my math and reasoning, if anyone wants. I tried by best to give conservative estimates to give Tru-fuel the best chance it could. For example, it only costs me $4/gallon for E-free pump gas and maybe only $1.50 max for mix per gallon, but I wanted to account for people who can't get it as cheap. I'll be honest and say I don't know if the 2000 hours lifespan is 100% accurate. That's why I'll include new calculations for 1000 and 500 hours below...

Pump Mix Cost (1000 hours): $2537.50
Tru-Fuel Cost (1000 hours): $10,875.00

Pump Mix Cost (500 hours): $1268.75
Tru-Fuel Cost (500 hours): $5437.50

And here's a super liberal estimate in favor of Tru-fuel, assuming you can find Tru-fuel for $15/gallon and your saw only runs 500 hours...

Pump Mix Cost (500 hours): $1268.75
Tru-Fuel Cost (500 hours @$15/gallon): $2718.75

Even with that super extreme math, you can still buy a whole new 462 with the fuel savings by using pump gas.

I'm open to corrections/clarifications. I'm doing this math late at night, so I'm tired, lol.

I think the main takeaway is this: your saw is going to run way more money in the way of fuel than your saw costs, many times over.

You can save even more using regular pump gas (87 octane) and mix small amounts that you use right away. The only real down side of using ethanol is if it sits for a long time. I use 87 octane and use it within a week or less and I run my saw till it runs dry or I dump it out and run it dry.
Try calculating regular gas at $2.99 where average fuel cost is.