EPA targets families that generate heat off the grid using traditional wood-burning s

[slowp]

YUP.. ALL woodstoves should be banned,,and everything in america should be under epa's FORCED wonderful non biased regulations..them educated idiots,,are idiots...do as they say,,not as they do..more leftists subversive regulations...

Hardly. You are so obsessed with there only being black and white.

I support cleaner burning stoves. How could anybody not? Do you purposely want to pollute the air in your community? Make it hard for some people to breathe? Are you one of those folks who burns tires?

The government HAS to step in when the basic right of folks to breathe clean air outside, or inside, on their own property, is affected by a jerk who does not have the good sense to be a good neighbor and not burn on a day when the smoke is hanging close to the ground--inversion.

Are you a bad or a good neighbor, Olyman? Isn't it the Christian thing to do--thinking of others also?

Leftist Subversive? :msp_tongue:

Laws get made because there are people who do the wrong thing. To quote Paul Harvey, "There can be no self government without self discipline." or something like that.

 

[Whitespider]

I just saw 3 bald eagles overhead today. There were none when I was a kid.
Thank you EPA and NY DEC for that.

THAT'S JUST FLAT STUPID!.
The EPA has nothing to do with the return of the Bald Eagle or any other predatory bird.
There was a day when people shot-on-sight any predator... feathered, furred or otherwise...
Only a fool would credit the EPA with the return of such...

And I'll tell you that I ain't putttin' up with any predator messin' with what's mine! Bank on it!

 

[ponyexpress976]

First of all, where does this ignorant idea that pre-EPA stoves were inefficient come from? If the operator understands the principles involved, uses seasoned wood, installs a flue damper and adjusts it correctly, a (so-called) “smokehauser” burns highly efficient, with little or no smoke. Yesterday morning I filled my “old smokehauser” with oak at 4:00 AM atop a good bed of coals, got it burning good, closed the door and set the flue damper. When I left for work there was only a tiny bit of white smoke/steam coming from the chimney. The temperature never went above freezing yesterday and when I got home at 5:30 PM (13½ hours after loading it) the house was 76-degrees and there was a solid bed of coals in the “old smokehauser” still making heat! I asked the wife if she had reloaded during the day… Her answer… “Good lord, NO! It’s been like an oven in here all day! And by the way, I haven’t cleaned the old brick chimney in 18 years, but I check it often and never find anything more than a thin coating of soot. That’s pretty damn clean and efficient in my book!

Second, the EPA regulations have nothing to with efficiency… never did, never will. It’s all about the (so-called)emissions… C’mon, your brand new 4-cylinder, EPA compliant car pumps more dangerous crap into the air than any “old smokehauser” ever will… and if’n you’re burning an ethanol blend, it’s even worse. This whole “EPA wood-burning appliance” thing is driven by special interest groups, bleeding-heart tree-huggers and such. Don’t even try to argue with me on this because you have absolutely no chance of swaying my opinion… I don’t “buy into” any BS from the EPA or any other group, I do my own research and comparisons.

Third, it doesn’t matter what you believe about the EPA. You can argue all you want about the “good” or the “bad” they do… it still doesn’t matter. The Federal Government does not have the Constitutional authority to “regulate” wood-burning appliance standards (plus a ton more crap) beyond that of safety, and even that’s limited. The “General Welfare” and “Interstate Commerce” clauses of the constitution have been prostituted beyond common sense… And it’s high time citizens of this country wake up to that fact. There isn’t anything preventing a local or state government from setting standards, or even the outright banning… But the Feds have no authority, and that’s a simple fact.

The EPA, and most every other “regulatory” federal agency should be abolished (such as the Department of Energy). It is the job of congress to “regulate interstate commerce” and “provide for the general welfare” through the passage of clear-cut law… The lazy bums have no authority to create a “regulatory” agency and pass that job off on them, wasting huge sums of tax-payer dollars. But that would mean the lazy bums would actually have to work, actually have to learn how the real world works, and then they’d have to actually agree on something… which explains why we have these BS “regulatory” agency’s… doesn’t it? Those defending the EPA, or any of its policies, are like a group of sheep being led by wolves.

Whitespider, It's comments like these that make you and everyone else that thinks like you (myself included) any enemy of the state. We think for ourselves and when something just doesn't feel right, we do our own research. and most importantly...we know how to take care of ourselves and our loved ones and neighbors. We are prepared. We can get by when the lights go out...cause we can fix the lights. We won't wait for the FEMA buses, we'll get out ahead of time and take everyone we can with us.

 

[sesmith]

THAT'S JUST FLAT STUPID!.
The EPA has nothing to do with the return of the Bald Eagle or any other predatory bird.

Only a fool would credit the EPA with the return of such...

Ever hear of DDT?? The EPA banned its use in 1972. It's use was responsible for the birds having soft shells on their eggs. They couldn't reproduce. The EPA and it's endangered species list, and it's ban of DDT has everything to do with the return of the bald eagle (and the peregrine falcon) to the northeast.

 

[Ayatollah]

The EPA wouldn't be interested in wood burning if there weren't air quality problems in some areas because of it. Just as people have rights to heat their homes as they want, other people have the right to breathe clean air. Cleaning up newer wood stoves and furnaces is a good thing. They are also more efficient as a result.

All you have to do is follow a 60's or 70's vintage car and breathe the exhaust from it to remind you how far we've come with vehicle emissions since then, thanks to the EPA. I remember when the air around cities burned your eyes.

I just saw 3 bald eagles overhead today. There were none when I was a kid.

Thank you EPA and NY DEC for that.

I don't know that there is a right to breath clean air. nature certainly doesn't respect it, that for sure. Polluted air has been around since there was fire. Mount pinatubo, mt st helens, and yearly forest fires stated by lightning foul the air by natures hand. I remember the air during the 50's and 60's as well, and we used to burn our paper garbage in a burn barrel. It wasn't a big problem back thenas wasn't the monoxide from engines simply because the population was way, way less. We're not prepared to clean the air to perfection for 20 billion people. I know people in Maui complain about the air quality when they cannot see the big island in daylight. Burning tires and such is bad for the burner just as it is the neighbor. Of course people should burn the best product they can get for their own health as well as their community. But these folk here in sac are sampling it to microscopic levels to ding us for 50.oo. If they really wanted us to have cleaner air, they would slow down immigration. Right now we have 20 million or so people who came here in violation of the law, and they are driving beater cars, using more heat, water, and sewer than was planned for, yet it is us, the native born citizen that is being fined and disciplined for doing something that is traditional, cultural, and in many cases a necessity. And what is washington's response? More immigrants to add to the pollution. Yes; that's what they want increases in population to strain the resources and add to pollution.
This home wood fire restrictions are not about cleaner air. No sir...that's just a convenient excuse

 

[Whitespider]

Ever hear of DDT?? The EPA banned its use in 1972. It's use was responsible for the birds having soft shells on their eggs. They couldn't reproduce. The EPA and it's endangered species list, and it's ban of DDT has everything to do with the return of the bald eagle (and the peregrine falcon) to the northeast.

Yep, I’ve heard of DDT… I’ve even used the stuff… But, I thought it was the use of lead shot in my shotgun to hunt ducks that was killing the predatory birds? Oh yeah, that’s right… I forgot… When, after the ban on DDT, the birds didn’t return as fast as predicted they had to find another “thing” to blame it on.

So first let’s set the record on DDT straight. The whole DDT scare got started in 1962 when bleeding-heart tree-hugger Rachel Carson published her book Silent Spring. In her book Carson claimed that chemicals (not just DDT) were poisoning people, wildlife and the environment. This best seller book, based on zero scientific fact, near single-handedly started what many of us call the “Environmental Wacko Movement”. In 1967 a bunch of these bleeding-heart wacko scientists and lawyers formed the “Environmental Defense Fund” (EDF). Around the same time a guy by the name of Peakall (spelling?) had been studying egg shell thinning, finding higher DDT levels in some of the eggs. There wasn’t any scientific proof that DDT was the cause, just a suspicion… but the EDF ran with it, screaming for a DDT ban and filing law suits.

Finally, in 1971, the EDF found a sympathetic judge in the U.S. District Court who ordered the EPA to look into it. After 6-months of study the EPA refused to ban DDT, stating they had found no danger to humans, wildlife or the environment. Well, the tree-huggers didn’t let up, and bowing to public pressure the EPA held hearings lasting into 1972. Much like the “Man-Made Global Warming” and “Lead Shot” issues, scientists from both sides gave opinions and (so-called) evidence. There still wasn’t any sort of scientific proof, just opinions and correlations… but in the end the EPA banned the use of DDT.

Now here’s the REAL evidence… Several recent studies have shown that DDT levels have fallen dramatically during the 40-year ban, yet egg shell thickness has not increased. The egg shells from predatory birds remain 10-12 percent thinner! So how can anyone claim the EPA saved the eagles when the ban on DDT hasn’t fixed what it was supposed to… namely, the egg shell problem?

Here in the Midwest we’ve seen the increase and return of many predators, feathered and fur bearing. Eagles, Hawks, Owls, Buzzards, Wolves, Cougar, Badger, Black Bear, etc., etc, etc… As well as non-predator species such as Turkey, Dove, Mink, Partridge, Deer, and whatnot. Eagle populations (as well as all other predator populations) have increased as their prey species has increased. We don’t shoot them on sight like we used to, and they and their prey species are managed by state and local agencies… such as the DNR. It is the actions of state and local wildlife/natural resources agencies that have brought back the eagle… the Feds (EPA) failed.

 

[slowp]

I don't know that there is a right to breath clean air. nature certainly doesn't respect it, that for sure. Polluted air has been around since there was fire. Mount pinatubo, mt st helens, and yearly forest fires stated by lightning foul the air by natures hand. I remember the air during the 50's and 60's as well, and we used to burn our paper garbage in a burn barrel. It wasn't a big problem back thenas wasn't the monoxide from engines simply because the population was way, way less. We're not prepared to clean the air to perfection for 20 billion people. I know people in Maui complain about the air quality when they cannot see the big island in daylight. Burning tires and such is bad for the burner just as it is the neighbor. Of course people should burn the best product they can get for their own health as well as their community. But these folk here in sac are sampling it to microscopic levels to ding us for 50.oo. If they really wanted us to have cleaner air, they would slow down immigration. Right now we have 20 million or so people who came here in violation of the law, and they are driving beater cars, using more heat, water, and sewer than was planned for, yet it is us, the native born citizen that is being fined and disciplined for doing something that is traditional, cultural, and in many cases a necessity. And what is washington's response? More immigrants to add to the pollution. Yes; that's what they want increases in population to strain the resources and add to pollution.
This home wood fire restrictions are not about cleaner air. No sir...that's just a convenient excuse

Yup, blame Guatemala. That's where most of our immigrant workers come from now. Our population expansion has nothing to do with folks who are already here having lots of babies. Or moving to the west from other states.

Did you ever think of moving into a smaller house if you can't afford to heat where you live now--or a better insulated house? Isn't that another example of individual responsibility?

Nope, it is much easier to blame them Mexicans, kind of like Germany in the 1930s blamed somebody.

Forest fires? Yup, they cause pollution. Some of us choke our way through that season. Does that mean we can't have a reprieve in the winter? If air pollution can be prevented, it should be. That's a simple concept.

 

[Dalmatian90]

Nice article in Reason -- the standard bearer of the Libertarians in the U.S. -- pretty systematically debunking arguments that DDT wasn't a significant factor in the decline (and it's ban in the comeback of) eagles. And doing so in a ...gulp...reasoned and balanced way.

DDT, Eggshells, and Me - Reason Magazine

Science isn't always eureka moments. That article does a nice job with the timeline and evolving regulations -- from speculation by Carson, to scientifically valid correlation by '67, causation in at least some experiments by '72, and finally an understanding of the mechanics by '75 which also helped explain conflicting results of the early causation experiments. And that there's been little research done since 1980 because the issue was identified, solved, and we moved on except in the minds of folks on both sides of the issue who can't compromise and refuse to acknowledge the science on both sides.

 

[sesmith]

So first let’s set the record on DDT straight.

Ok, I realize you can find all you want to support your argument on such "trustworthy" websites like junkscience. I'm gonna defer to the US fish and wildlife's info on DDT and it's related compounds here as they've been studying it's effects since 1945 combining tests in the field with lab tests and reviews of other research. They know more about the subject than you or I ever will:

Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

a history of their news releases here:

Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Now I'll let this ridiculous thread get back to it's bashing of the EPA, the far left, and our rights to make our neighbors breathe our smoke.

 

[Ayatollah]

Yup, blame Guatemala. That's where most of our immigrant workers come from now. Our population expansion has nothing to do with folks who are already here having lots of babies. Or moving to the west from other states.

Did you ever think of moving into a smaller house if you can't afford to heat where you live now--or a better insulated house? Isn't that another example of individual responsibility?

Nope, it is much easier to blame them Mexicans, kind of like Germany in the 1930s blamed somebody.

Forest fires? Yup, they cause pollution. Some of us choke our way through that season. Does that mean we can't have a reprieve in the winter? If air pollution can be prevented, it should be. That's a simple concept.

If you read, I was blaming Washington, not the guatemalans. The Germany reference really doesn't fit, because the jews were primarily blamed for strangling the german economy, not polluting the natural resources. But the increases in our population are being driven by immigration, and recent offspring of immigrants, not native born.

If these rules that the states are implementing were designed to promote cleaner burning and thus cleaner air only, they would not actually have "no burn" days at all. The "no burn" day thing is an introduction to the eventual ban. As mentioned earlier, these manipulative geniuses realize that an immediate all out ban would arouse suspicion, and generally cause more of the revolt behavior they hope to avoid. If revolts are on the menu, they want it to be on their terms, not one that begins at the grassroots level on the populaces terms. So ban days are introduced to have acceptance of them begin slowly. The county here offers a grant to those who are willing to change out old equipment. Up to 1500.00 towards the purchase of EPA approved stoves and fireplaces. Sounded good enough at first, but they recently added a devious twist. Under the primary rules, you could burn on more days with the EPA stove....the "cleanly burn" only days. But now if you accept the grant to upgrade your equipment, you must also sign an agreement not to burn on the "cleanly burn only" days. The thrust of this legislation and the resulting rules is aimed at halting the practice of wood fires at all. It's not hard to see that if you look. I don't mind burning cleanly, or working towards cleaning the air. I actually don't mind immigrants within reason either. They used to be a significant part of my customer base in the past. What I do mind is devious, conniving, hypocritical, manipulators who scheme to deprive me of my culture, tradition, lifestyle, freedom, and independence for thier own gain. It's also not just the fireplace that they practice their hypocrisy. The water and sewer are rushing down the same pathway. We are now paying about 3 times as much for the water, and 7 times increases in sewer rates, all because the population has increased beyond the stated capacity to clean it. Once again, don't mind cleaning the water. Do mind that as soon as we do, they build beyond the capacity, which they actually do even as they say the next increase only covers that which has already occurred. It's also not hard to see who is inhabiting the majority of newly constructed housing developements that are at the root of the overused sewer system...immigrants. Once again, the main thrust of my ire goes towards those in washington...actually it extends beyond washington to these unions of regional governments that scheme to plant new citizens where they can be useful to them. But, you cannot point to them without including immigrants in the references, and as soon as you do, some people immediately claim persecution of the downtrodden.
So what was it you said?...oh yeah, don't pollute your air. I am not the biggest polluter of your air; it's the increase in population doing just about everything else that's doing that. They drive more vehicles, they cause more construction equipment to run, and on and on. If there was a law that said the government had to reduce the environmental impact of immigrants before they immigrated, then maybe I'd feel there was some equality in this, however no congressperson would ever get that passed in washington, for if something of the like started growing legs, they would most assuredly perish in some tragic plane crash or suffer a suicide.

 

[Ayatollah]

Ok, I realize you can find all you want to support your argument on such "trustworthy" websites like junkscience. I'm gonna defer to the US fish and wildlife's info on DDT and it's related compounds here as they've been studying it's effects since 1945 combining tests in the field with lab tests and reviews of other research. They know more about the subject than you or I ever will:

Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

a history of their news releases here:

Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Now I'll let this ridiculous thread get back to it's bashing of the EPA, the far left, and our rights to make our neighbors breathe our smoke.

I am not a chemist, or forensic scientist, and I will not admit or deny any of the claims made about chemicals in the environment. Certainly our waterways here in the Sacramento area have been polluted by mercury that was used in gold mining decades and more than a century ago; likewise for the lead based paints, as they still line the bottom of the rivers, streams and San Fransico bay. Fire residue though, not so much

 

[Whitespider]

…I realize you can find all you want to support your argument on such "trustworthy" websites like junkscience. I'm gonna defer to the US fish and wildlife's info on DDT… They know more about the subject than you or I ever will:

Really? So another Federal agency is “trustworthy”? Let’s see… an agency that has its leader appointed by a politician, the sitting president… and approved by more politicians, congress… gets its funding from politicians, again congress… and is controlled directly by politicians. Yep, I’ll just bet everything I own that there ain’t gonna’ be any political or special interest bias or influences on that website.

Listen… DDT may cause egg shell thinning in wild predatory birds, or it may not. Simply it’s an unproven theory. If we start banning everything that “might” be dangerous or harmful based on theory… well, I guess we’ll just have to ban…….. EVERYTHING!

I don’t get my information from “websites” and opinion pages. I “trust” studies done by people who at least appear to have no axe to grind, don’t get funding from government, are not part of or affiliated with any special-interest groups, and who try just as hard to disprove one side as the other. The egg shell thinning from DDT is nothing but a theory, never scientifically proven, and is only accepted mostly by special-interest tree-hugger types. In the unbiased world of science a “theory” only becomes accepted as fact after ALL OTHER possibilities have been eliminated and the predictions put forth by the theorist have come true. This can take years, decades or even lifetimes… such as Einenstein’s Theory of Relativity, in which only certain parts have become accepted as fact and much of it is still regarded as only theory. There are two simple facts, both of which have come to light after the DDT ban and appear to toss the DDT theory totally out the window, but the tree-huggers just ignore them because it doesn’t “fit” their agenda… they believe that just because their agenda is noble we should all side with them regardless of the facts.

1. Egg shell thinning began many years before the use of DDT.
2. Egg shell thickness has not increased after the ban of DDT (except possibly in some spotty, localized areas, which proves nothing).

Because there is no scientific proof that egg shells have thickened after the DDT ban it is ignorant folly to claim the EPA saved the birds.
Just another case of sheep being led by wolves…

 

[danrclem]

All you have to do is follow a 60's or 70's vintage car and breathe the exhaust from it to remind you how far we've come with vehicle emissions since then, thanks to the EPA. I remember when the air around cities burned your eyes.

I grew up following those 60s and 70s cars and the exhaust didn't bother me unless they were worn out and burning oil. A car made in the 2000s will do the same thing if it's worn out and burning oil.

 

[Biker Dude]

As a mechanic all my life I did too. In fact, I could tell the condition of the car by the smell of it's exhaust (blown head gasket, burning oil, carb set too rich/lean) but modern cars with converters are more difficult to smell. Is that good, bad, or neither? Cars get much better mileage and reliability now but they are constructed lighter and cause more crash fatalities than old cars did. The price of a cleaner environment is more dead people but I guess that serves the purpose of the overpopulation alarmists.

 

[deerlakejens]

So, spider, how's your groundwater there in Iowa? When I lived there in the 80's, groundwater contamination from overuse of pesticides was a major issue or is there a conspiracy theory that refutes that as well? I worked for an integrated pest management service that helped growers use science rather than marketing information in making application choices that saved them money and the environment from unnecessary contaminants. Getting Nixon to enact the EPA legislature was a huge coup for those who spent years putting it together when it was obvious that private business had no interest in being responsible for their long term impact. Whether you think it's worth while or not, your kids will be appreciative of the reforms. If you happened to live around any of the EPA Superfund sites, you would see the extreme examples of corporate irresponsibility. The administration of some of these cleanups have become local boondoggles but that is another story. By the way, shooting of predators certainly has an impact on predators in more populated areas but there are multiple studies, especially of eagles and ospreys, that show the incidence of failed nests and DDT was a fact. Sorry, you are flat out wrong on that issue.

 

[Ayatollah]

EPA may be another one in a series of government creations for good cause, only to be turned into an agency misused like the DHS and TSA.

 

[Whitespider]

The water from my well is wet.

If I’m so wrong than give me an explanation why egg shells were thinning before DDT and have not thickened since the ban. And while you’re at it point me to the results of these “multiple studies that show the incidence of failed nests and DDT was a fact”. Notice that I emphasize the word “fact” instead of suspicion, belief, hypothesis, speculation, assumption, conjecture, theory or whatever.

-edit-
It's pretty darn hard to call it a "fact" when science has been unable to identify the mechanism through which DDT supposedly causes thin-shelled eggs. There are several theory's, but as of yet... no proof.

 

[deerlakejens]

Hey, I'm not saying the EPA has no flaws and couldn't be better, but it was created by necessity and in our litigious society, has evolved beyond its original scope. Name me one department that hasn't! In a democracy, there are no "finished products". They are constantly being reshaped to fit the current situations, with a lag time that may be frustrating but normally doesn't allow knee jerk reactions. That is the hidden benefit of bureaucracy, if there is one. Would we be better off without national standards so we can leave up to individual municipalities? Sure, if you are a lawyer. This argument reminds me of football. After every loss, it's "Fire the Coach"! They don't have a better coach in mind as a replacement but they are sure the current one needs to go.

 

[deerlakejens]

DDT (dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane) is a good place to start if you want a good background on why DDT was banned, unless you have a problem with Cornell University. Besides the egg shell issue, DDT's longevity and toxicity to aquatic life were the big factors for environmentalists or anyone else that values wildlife. Follow up on the sources cited there and there is plenty of documented info that isn't "spun".

 

[ponyexpress976]

In a democracy, there are no "finished products". They are constantly being reshaped to fit the current situations, with a lag time that may be frustrating but normally doesn't allow knee jerk reactions. That is the hidden benefit of bureaucracy, if there is one.

Here's the problem with your argument...and you might say its just semantics but if word don't mean something...what does. We DO NOT live in a democracy. The US was designed as a republic. In a democracy, mobs (or the majority) rule. The bureaucracy you speak of often enacts regulations that are exactly knee jerk reactions. That's why these agencies grow to cumbersome an ineffective levels with no clear vision to thier original purpose. Constant reshaping is another reason...without a clear longterm plan all they can ever do is react.

The only real sollution to this ever growing government intrusion is for the populace to once again become self reliant, educated, and responsible. To know and have the courage to stand on your values. To do you own research. And to "vote" with your wallet by supporting those companies and businesses that follow your values. To many of us go with the most convenient or cheapest without looking for the value or values. I don't shop at Walmart for this reason...not because they are destroying Mainstreet...they offer tremendous convenience to the masses. I don't shop there because I don't mind shopping around for quality. I don't follow the "I need it now" crowd. When I need something I buy the best I can afford...if I need "it" once, chances are I'll need "it" again in the future. No sense in buying "it" twice.