Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Does it increase your chances of a Barber-chair?
Discuss. . .
Discuss. . .
Excessive stump-shot. . .
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Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
When I first started I had a hard time not leaving a big step. Took a while for me to get it down.
I don't have the experience alot of you guys have so my opinion may not be valid but I am not a big believer in leaving much stump shot. I have not had a barberchair that has ever amounted to much but I have seen slabbing that stopped just short of a chair. I prefer minimal stump shot on the dead trees I take down, like about and inch, maybe two inches at most. I almost always use a Humboldt as it feels more natural to me and easier to match to the gunning cut vs a conventional notch.
To clarify I think in dead trees too much stump shot is a very bad thing. The hinge is not flexible and the fibers tend to break rather than bend or pull. To much stump shot will cause (me) to cut the hinge up too close because the tree won't commit to the lean fast enough. A tree over about 30" gets 2" of stump shot, below that I prefer 1".
Breaking the hinge wood early really sucks!
To clarify I think in dead trees too much stump shot is a very bad thing. The hinge is not flexible and the fibers tend to break rather than bend or pull. To much stump shot will cause (me) to cut the hinge up too close because the tree won't commit to the lean fast enough. A tree over about 30" gets 2" of stump shot, below that I prefer 1".
Breaking the hinge wood early really sucks!
The biggest thing I found is it makes one that leans the wrong way a lot harder to tip over.
I think the USFS has done a lot of part-time cutters a disservice by preaching stump shot as a safety item. Near as I can figure, its only real function is to keep the stem from sliding or rolling back across the stump once it tips, which isn't an issue at all with a Humboldt. Why they insist on teaching the conventional face is beyond me. I've always found it easier to match the corners with a Humboldt, as well as physically less work -- just dog in and let gravity do its thing rather than fighting the saw all the way through the cut.
As for barberchair, that's a possibility that needs to be addressed on a tree-by-tree basis rather than by sweeping proclamation. Again, I blame the USFS for teaching one cut as though every tree was the same. I have a sneaking suspicion that there was a good reason for a stepped back cut in the crosscut days, but at the moment I'm at a loss to figure out what that was.
Oh, and all cuts waist-high? Another dumb idea. It's like they don't want their cutters to practice critical thinking. I've had to evaluate cutters for S-212 and bit my tongue checking off as "good" all these practices that I personally disagree with.
As for barberchair, that's a possibility that needs to be addressed on a tree-by-tree basis rather than by sweeping proclamation. Again, I blame the USFS for teaching one cut as though every tree was the same. I have a sneaking suspicion that there was a good reason for a stepped back cut in the crosscut days, but at the moment I'm at a loss to figure out what that was.
Oh, and all cuts waist-high? Another dumb idea. It's like they don't want their cutters to practice critical thinking. I've had to evaluate cutters for S-212 and bit my tongue checking off as "good" all these practices that I personally disagree with.
Rounder
Addicted to ArboristSite
Nate, I don't think it increases the chance of a chair at all. My boss insists on 2 inches, his thinking being that it will slow the fall of the tree, helping eliminate fibre pull, given more time to proceed with the back cut in un-tensioned fibre. He is right, but keeping the tree on the stump longer has its downfalls too.
That said, I hate the backstep, and don't usually use it, unless I'm within view of the road where the boss might see what I'm up to. A sharp chain, expierence and adequate sized saw will take care of fiber pull or barberchair potential.
That said, I hate the backstep, and don't usually use it, unless I'm within view of the road where the boss might see what I'm up to. A sharp chain, expierence and adequate sized saw will take care of fiber pull or barberchair potential.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Not talking 2 inches here guys, by excessive I mean 3" - 6" on trees no greater than 24" in diameter.
My personal belief is it will cause a chair, if the wood grain is straight enough -- whether the tree is green or dead.
This spans multiple species, but the more chair prone species would be even worse.
In example, Cody is a nice guy, but he needs more than the wildland training he has.
Check out his step here, and watch the wood grain. . . If it was straighter grained, or frozen, I believe it could have slabbed on him. Especially if his face had been more shallow, and the face would have closed earlier on him.
Not saying I'm right, but that's why I think this is a good thing to spitball on.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sk5SshyzGNk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
My personal belief is it will cause a chair, if the wood grain is straight enough -- whether the tree is green or dead.
This spans multiple species, but the more chair prone species would be even worse.
In example, Cody is a nice guy, but he needs more than the wildland training he has.
Check out his step here, and watch the wood grain. . . If it was straighter grained, or frozen, I believe it could have slabbed on him. Especially if his face had been more shallow, and the face would have closed earlier on him.
Not saying I'm right, but that's why I think this is a good thing to spitball on.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/sk5SshyzGNk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Ugh Wranglerstar. No wonder you don't approve of his techniques. I have watched several of his videos in the past and while they are well done his experience level seems pretty low and he only knows his way. I was interested in hand tools and his axe video is really terrible. Sorta Bob Vila meets Red Green.
Metals406
Granfodder Runningsaw
Like I said, he's a nice guy -- but probably shouldn't be showing felling how-to in his videos.
He has older videos, when he was clearing his old property, when he was felling a lot of trees. In those videos, he would say he wasn't claiming to be a pro -- but in more than one sense -- folks will take him as one.
I (and others) gave him some good pointers back then. . . And apparently it fell on deaf ears. Can't really blame him, he probably thought I was some 15 year old goober typing in his mom's basement. :tongue2:
He's consistently stepped about 6" on his trees though -- is that something he learned when he was doing wildland fire stuff?
FSburt
ArboristSite Operative
My thoughts on stump shot height is like most of you already have pointed out. It is usually excessively preached that more is better for govt cutters and we end up seeing folks at our c sessions trying to beat themselves senseless with a tree that has a shallow 1/3 undercut and a high back cut to boot. I try to explain that there are very rare instances for needing a high backcut and it usually deals with falling down the hill and needing the tree to hang on the stump for most of the way down. I think they feel these are hard and fast rules that can never be broken which is where they get stuck at.
RandyMac
Stiff Member
Yep, for downhill or if the tree is pushing through other trees.
I'm a fan of waist high stumps.
I'm a fan of waist high stumps.
There's some good information in this thread...you guys have it figured out pretty good.
I agree that an inch or two doesn't really matter in most cases. After that it's a tree by tree thing.
I usually don't use much but, then again, it depends on the tree, the ground, and what I want to do.
They guy on the video? He's a little scary. With that particular tree I didn't see any need for a big step cut...but that's just me.
That move he made to retrieve his axe just as the tree started over was bad. If the tree had slabbed on him he couldn't have been in a worse position.
I agree that an inch or two doesn't really matter in most cases. After that it's a tree by tree thing.
I usually don't use much but, then again, it depends on the tree, the ground, and what I want to do.
They guy on the video? He's a little scary. With that particular tree I didn't see any need for a big step cut...but that's just me.
That move he made to retrieve his axe just as the tree started over was bad. If the tree had slabbed on him he couldn't have been in a worse position.
Rounder
Addicted to ArboristSite
Must be bored, I just watched the video.
In this case, the fondling of the tree in the beginning of the video, talking sweetly to it, and the wearing of the bandana will most certainly avert any danger of a chair.
In this case, the fondling of the tree in the beginning of the video, talking sweetly to it, and the wearing of the bandana will most certainly avert any danger of a chair.
Yup..and that wicker-bill hat, too, that'll keep a guy safe. I was waiting for him to buck his tape when he left it stretched out. I watched it without sound but I'll just take your word about the sweet talking. The bandana was a bit too much.
y m c a
forestryworks
Addicted to ArboristSite
I don't know about excessive stump-shot making certain trees more prone to barber chair, but I do know it makes trees harder to wedge over...
Did a job last week falling topped pines. Not sure why the person topping them couldn't finish their work, but whatever; I made good money off their nonsense.
The guy I worked with is a gov. employee, always 1/3 depth conventional, stump-shot, ALWAYS wedging. Every. Single. Tree. :bang:
We had two topped trees left to fall, I got one, he got one.
He did his usual cutting. I cut mine a good deal more than 1/2 depth (free standing spars, mind you) and it fell with no effort from me; except dogging my saw from far to near. He beat wedges on his spar until the thing wobbled and inched its way painfully slow to the tipping point.
I guess he had enough ax swinging cause he stood up and pushed it over :monkey:
There's a reason for doing the undercut first; it undermines (undercuts) the tree's center of gravity. Hopefully that guy will understand that some day and not work so hard.
Did a job last week falling topped pines. Not sure why the person topping them couldn't finish their work, but whatever; I made good money off their nonsense.
The guy I worked with is a gov. employee, always 1/3 depth conventional, stump-shot, ALWAYS wedging. Every. Single. Tree. :bang:
We had two topped trees left to fall, I got one, he got one.
He did his usual cutting. I cut mine a good deal more than 1/2 depth (free standing spars, mind you) and it fell with no effort from me; except dogging my saw from far to near. He beat wedges on his spar until the thing wobbled and inched its way painfully slow to the tipping point.
I guess he had enough ax swinging cause he stood up and pushed it over :monkey:
There's a reason for doing the undercut first; it undermines (undercuts) the tree's center of gravity. Hopefully that guy will understand that some day and not work so hard.
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Rounder
Addicted to ArboristSite
And beer just went from my mouth and hit the computer screen, needed that! Gotta go to bed.....3AM wake-up call.
That was ####### funny.
