"Extreme Rigging"

[John Paul Sanborn]

If this is the Paolo I've met, he's got some working gray matter. If he does not chime in, I'm sure Dunlap will. They are as good of friends as any 2 people living on oposet sides of the world can be.

I too have seriouse reservations on trusting lags with that kind of loading.

Using a kerfs to set your hitch and and marl sounds much more reasonble.

My rough math gives me ~450# for a 1x3 chunk of oak. I'm not going to huck that chunk too far from the base of the tree, and I'm not a little fellah.

I'd not be comfortable with a metal spring in the rigging, Tenex slings have enough flex for me. If the spring failed it could take your head off.

As for truely huge trees (Not all that many in our metro area) I have a list of people they can call for competative bids. They are not worth it to me any more. If it's a big nastyand one of my sub'ing clients needs help, I'll recomend Sean or Bryan. Though I Sean seems to be thinking of scaling back.

 

[Pez]

extreme rigging

To use Mcphersons example, you have little option but the lag hook technique cutting 6 to 12" discs. Use rods or ball bearings to slide the piece to the edge, then roll on rods or ball bearings and let slip into the rigging. Little fall force = control. Obvious a shock load runs the risk of snapping a lag, which has happened to me with alloy lags and placing them 24" apart instead on 12" trying to be a bit too clever : ) But if you don't try you won't know. Run the math and roping alternative with standard techniques, and you're running the risk of the tree or rigging failing.

I don't know about USA, NZ or OZ, but in Europe we have enourmous girth Beech and Oak in tight spots. With all the small winding roads, big equipment is out of the question. More than that, such trees are often legally protected. That means I only normally get called in to remove a tree when its on the verge of collapse. Now I'm not going to put in a low bid and take stupid risks with big lumps just to get the job done! There are plenty of idiots that can try that. I've gotten away with such stunts in the past, but I learned enough not to push the boat out with others property/lives. You certainly get no sympathy when it goes wrong, and it doesn't do the arborist professional image/ accident stats any favours either.

Such trees are engineering challenges, not whose got the biggest balls. The lags shouldn't rip out, unless you shock load. I have tried it with a portawrap in the tree to lower anchor forces, but now prefer a tail hold pulley with the bushing removed, attached to a shackle attached to the FORGED STEEL lag. This places the pulley side on which is preferable. I found a rescue pulley clipped straight to the lag ran the risk of getting bent. I use a Hobbs and 16mm (5/8") NYLON double braid, but a 3 ply should do. crank up the stretch, then the rope acts like a spring as the load comes into the line, avoiding slack and shock. Nylon because there are no slings to stretch and take up energy. In fact, nylon should be considered for many topping down situations - let it run and it won't be felt, make a mistake and it'll forgive you to live another day.

There are other uses for the technique on big limbs which are lower risk and highly effective at reducing drop distance. Hello JPS - could to come across you again! I think you're friend Freddie has a similar idea.

I'm waiting for a job where I can do a few more trials. I might have to phone round some riggers just to get a good trunk to play with. I'm not saying the technique is perfect, but it beats the alternatives when you do the math on forces. The risks should dictate the controls and price accordingly, not what you feel you can get away with in an intuitive sense alone.

 

[Ekka]

Welcome to the site Pez, do you have any diagram or pics?

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It took me a while to remember, but Freddi B. has used a similar method for limbing ove a roof w/o any good rig points.

Drilled into the side of the limb and fishpole the line out through them. Cut just beyond the eye lag and there is no drop int he rig a sling and carabiner would give.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Paolo, do you figure loads for the holding force of the treads in the wood, or since it's a single use scenario, you feel that the metal is the weaker component?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

There is no way I would trust a lag screw to hold. In my early attempts at cabling I used a come along to bring opposing spars closer together. I would then attach the cable to the lag screws. When I let out the come along the lags would occasionally come flying out.

I don't know what you were doing wrong, but the lag should not be pulling out! In break tests I did, the cable always broke before the lag pulled out.
Also, cables shouldn't be installed so tight you're nearing the breaking strength of the cables. A come along only pulls about a thousand pounds, so you were doing something wrong.

Instead of tying off to the eye of the lag screw, what about just passing the line through it and then securing the line w/ a running bowline as usual??? All the lag screw has to do is keep the running bowline from slipping off the piece (not carry the entire load).

How about tying a marlin hitch to take the load then tying it off to the lag?
If you had tools that expedited the installation and removal of the lags that would help speed up this method. I always use a cordless electric drill, they are much nicer than the gas powered drills, you're only talking about drilling 1/2" holes in wood.
If you could make a bit that would grab the eye bolt and screw that into the hole, you could carry two drills on the way up, one to drill the holes, one to screw in the lags. I bet you could mount the lags in a few minutes. Heck, even install two lags per hunk.
Ultimately you need to know the load, and the breaking strength of the lag.
Lets say a 16mm (5/8") lag breaks at 10,000 lbs. Subtract a 5 to 1 safe working load, brings you down to 2000 lbs. Subtract 2 to 1 for the pulley (block) load multiplying, brings you down to 1000 lbs. Then you're dropping the load from above the pulley, I think the article mentioned 2 foot sections.
Does anyone know the load multiplier for a two foot drop? Conservatively, you're talking about 100 or 200 pound pieces.
For this reason, the method doesn't seem safe for holding the pulley, and that's a big time consuming part of moving from position to position.

 

[Pez]

extreme rigging

Pez is Laz Ekka : ) Pez/Mr.Pez on TB, only I forgot my password so resurrected myself as Laz2.

JPS - The lag hook pulling out really shouldn't be an issue in sound wood and 12" discs. the anchor lag snapping is more of an issue, which rules out alloy lags like those sold by Sherrill tree.

And Mike mentioned 2' pieces - NO, No, no. 12" length max! We're talking discs being slid into the rigging, not dropped = minimal fall energy. I like your other ideas though. I guess there is a cross over between us all posting. You can always rip big discs in half. You can even let them crash into a tyre mat or rough ground at the base - At least the rope will stop them from travelling further.

I don't have pictures.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

The major objective is to speed the movement of rigging as you work your way down?

 

[Pez]

extreme rigging

That and ergonomic issues, and bringing the weight of sections down to a controllable size and reducing fall forces= better comfort and control.

To use an anology, think of pumping light weights with high reps with an efficient stance, vs heavy weights with lower reps and twisting in an inefficient way.

There must be someone else out there who has used it to good effect?

I'll continue this on TB when its back on line. its been nice meeting you all!

 

[Old Monkey]

Such trees are engineering challenges, not whose got the biggest balls.

I liked that.

Mr. Maas, unfortunately I had to work out a lot of the details on cabling myself and yes I did things wrong at first.

How do you use a cordless drill to put in lag screws?

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I only use a cordless drill to drill the holes, but I was suggesting you might be able to make a tool to grab the lag and screw it in. Perhaps take a large deep socket and cut a slit in the side that would fit over the lag, then use a cordless drill or cordless impact wrench to twist the lag in.
If it's fast and easy to put the lags in, the arborist will be more likely to install more of them, instead of overloading the hardware.
When you think about the process, the time spent installing the lags seems to be the major problem.

 

[Bermie]

Hi Paolo,
Fi here in Bermuda, I've told 'em you're the real deal, but I'm only a small fry...

 

[Pez]

Hi Fi

Thanks for the support, and great to hear from you again! I hear there was a bad tree work accident on Bermuda recently? Any details?

How was your time at Merrist Wood ? its changed a lot since I was there, but I always think of it at this time of year.

Take care!
P.

 

[Bermie]

Hi Paolo - Yes, I posted it on the Accident Fatality forum here.(Fatality in Bermuda)
Guy up a ladder, totally unsecured, BIG casuarina branch, it went wrong he fell, branch fell on him, he died. Sad
Merrist Wood was great, filled in a lot of gaps, much is different, much the same - Derek, Jack, what can I say.
I won't go on too much, don't want to derail the thread, someone might yell at me!

 

[Pez]

Guess he hadn't passed his nptc cert with you guys then? opcorn:

This is where the thread ended :

http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=58370&Main=58259#Post58370

Better go before I get :blob5:

 

[coydog]

this technique has been around, A climber I used to work with turned me on to it a few years ago, and said an oldtimer had shown him. Nice trick to have in your bag, cool to see it being discussed

 

[rbtree]

Cool that you've heard of it, coydog. I have, as well. But have never needed to try it. I can see how it can work. I've read a fair bit of Paolo's and Laz's writings, and know they are very competent climbers and riggers.

Clearance, you might thining about keeping mum now and then....there's a world of experienced climbers that have done things way above anything you've ever considered.

But keep on with the comments about spurless climbing if you must...those of us skilled in the technique need a good laugh from time to time, I s'pose.

 

[Pez]

Coydog and rbtree - thank you for seconding that this technique is viable. Maybe you could dig around some of the old timers and not so old timers to get their opinions - opinions of those who have tried it often that is.

I'd be grateful.

Interesting you're both from the North West - I bet my NW Wales gets more rain than Seattle! Unfortunately I had to dismantle one of the first Sequoia dendrongiganteum brought into the UK a few years ago. 151 (I think) years old. Mind blowing knowing it had been handled as a seed by David Douglas. The root flare was massive because of reactive wood round the defective base. The diameter was 10 foot on the stump cut! Impressive growth. How long does it take redwoods to get that big round Seattle? The wind seems to burn the tops at about 100ft round here though.


Take care all! opcorn:

 

[jmack]

http://www.treemettlenexus.com/article7.html

I'd like to hear from anyone familiar w/ the rigging approach described in the attached article.

How well has it worked for you?

Did you make any modifications / improvements?

What would you consider the main weaknesses or risks to this method?

Again, the premise of the article is that you're dealing with diam > 36" and small yards w/ no access for heavy equipment....gotta be done w/ ropes and MA.

sounds like stuff from jerry's book with the hardware, the weakness sounds like time plus it sounds like this guy maxxxed whatever gear he had and came up wit dis

 

[clearance]

Cool that you've heard of it, coydog. I have, as well. But have never needed to try it. I can see how it can work. I've read a fair bit of Paolo's and Laz's writings, and know they are very competent climbers and riggers.

Clearance, you might thining about keeping mum now and then....there's a world of experienced climbers that have done things way above anything you've ever considered.

But keep on with the comments about spurless climbing if you must...those of us skilled in the technique need a good laugh from time to time, I s'pose.

I can rig off huge chunks, using the tree I am in for the spar, its not rocket science, can be fatal, has been fatal, who knows how many people have come very close to overloading the tree, how many times. I don't do it, just cause it can be done, doesn't mean you should do it. And there is a world of climbers who cringe at the thought of treework around high voltage. "Way above anything I've even considered", ooohh, I'm humbled. I've looked at your pictures, seen what you've done, I'll bet most arborists here couldn't do what you have done. Thats ok, big conifer removals are fun, not for the fainthearted, niether are big removals around high voltage. Spurless climbing and ******* out trees is ok, I guess, but it ain't the highest thing in tree climbing, it doesn't impress me, logging big wood from the top down in tight spots does, cheers RB.