Face-cut question?

[smokemonkey]

I have question for the old-timers out there (or any of the younger ones cutting big timber). I recently got Beranek's book "high climbers and timber fallers". It's an impressive collection. But I was curious about the mechanics of the face cuts they were all using. Anywhere I've worked a wide face was always emphasized and to avoid premature closing. From the book stories they all seem to have good control with all of those big redwoods. Is that due to the sheer weight of those giants that just carries them over, or is it something with the wide notch that helps the hinge wood carry them forward?

 

[ShoerFast]

Welcome to the site!

Picking the spot the tree wants to go may be something there not showing in the pictures?

Sort of like how Timing has a lot to do with a rain-dance!

Kevin

 

[smokechase II]

Block notch

The three most commonly used face cuts are all static. True, an open face can hold wood longer than the conventional or Humboldt, but an open face can't hold as long as a dynamic block cut. If the block is wide and has a large very open snipe. Just because an open face holds many different woods well through 90 degrees doesn't mean it works for all.

When Beranek talks about a block face being dynamic, what he means is that is very flexible. That flexibility can give you a longer hold, move the tree forward while still being attached and be safer than any of the other cuts.

Think about where the block/snipe gets its biggest use, Redwoods.
Redwood is not a strong wood. Durable from rot yes, but actually really weak compared with most other softwoods, let alone hardwoods.
Redwoods are big, conifers commit to the fall very well largely because of their size, (particularly height). It is very difficult to change the direction of fall on a huge diameter, tall tree that has established all that momentum after 45-50 degrees of drop. To be blunt, there no real need to hold these guys all the way to the ground from a directional standpoint.

So you've got a big tree that is going to hit where you've got it started because you used a hinge that is more likely to hold long enough because it is flexible. What else does this block face offer.
Part of why that block face/snipe combo gets used is also to get the tree started away from the stump, and then have the snipe pop it off. Getting the butt of the tree well clear of the stump is very desirable at times. Who is going to go next to all that power and stored energy and cut that tree off from the stump? What isn't a big deal on flat ground gets ugly on an 80% + slope.
(Yes, a snipe that closes quickly and is angled can be viewed as a dutch step equivalent. But with soft redwood, expect that snipe to collapse/cushion more than redirect. Best use that angled snipe goody on Doug Fir.)

While I just described a tree that will not be held, or you don't want it held at the stump. What about stump shot?
So let’s admit that there are a few times where stump shot is a great idea. Granted, often stump shot is either not needed, (no obstacles or hill or limb configuration to force a tree back), or not possible, (hill or logs etc. will guarantee that the tree cannot be held or controlled at the stump).
But, here is another advantage to a block face; with a flat butt log bottom and the unusually high face back created by the block cut, is the most likely "stump shot" to catch and hold a tree. This for those moments when holding the butt log is a big help to the faller with limited escape options.

For most of the rest of us, lesser men than Mr. Beranek, a block face is an interesting daydream. Or something we can use on dead wood to get a longer hinge hold than any of the static notches.

Sniff.

 

[smokemonkey]

That makes sence, thanks for the info!

 

[smokechase II]

redwood stuff

I think most of what I put out for the good of the order above is accurate.

You should be aware that I have zero background in dropping Redwoods. So while I know it to be a very soft wood, I simply don't know how the denser wood that exists around the base of any tree would behave in a large redwood. I'm referring to coast redwood, not the giant sequoias of which I know of even less.

I was hoping that a John Ellison or a cutter more familar with the block notch might jump in here and make a point or two.

Perhaps RB Tree or Clearance or Tree Sling'r or anyone else that possibly has been around these cuts at least more than I.

That latest Beranek book is pretty awesome.

 

[clearance]

I am sorry I cannot help, all I have ever seen on any logging show is Humboldt undercuts, all I use. Not going to guess about the other cuts but all the fallers here must have a clue.

 

[John Ellison]

I dont know anything about block cuts, must be just a redwood thing.

 

[John Ellison]

A question for anybody that has ever used a block notch. Is it only used to fall in the direction of lean, with no heavy side lean?
My reason for asking is a couple of years ago I had seen Baileys poster and thought I would experiment a little.:jawdrop: Twenty inch pine about 70' tall with a fair side lean from the face. I put a large block notch in it and made the back cut as I would have with a normal face cut and a tapered hinge. The tree fell thru about 20 deg. and then the the hinge on the far side collapsed and it fell about 45 deg. off from the face. It was a low stump cut and the best I could figure is the grain was not verticle in the hinge area and I just cut too much hinge up. With a v notch it would have fell where intended.

 

[smokechase II]

block notch stuff

John:
I don't have an answer.
But, I'll ask more questions.
Beranek's book and most of the redwood / block / snipe photos I can recall have a fairly small snipe that would close quickly. I suspect that part of this small snipe is to guard against what you've described.

The times I've played with a block notch, it was just with the lean.

{With your experience, and because of just that experience, that I'm not gonna try anything off lean. It does seem like it could be a fairly logical event and worth some respect.}

Here are a couple photos of Beranek's "high stump".

Does anyone know why he cut the back-cut so high? It could well be that it was extra insurance stump shot. Toppers are just fallers that are chained to the stump and have the solo escape option, (down).
But there may be another reason.

Then again, maybe based on a reverse logic, this could be a way to get a green, (some weight to it), tree go off lean.
The old tapered hinge trick. I just thought it worked a different way.

Time for Murphy to put out another magazine article.

 

[Ancient One]

FedX Left a Prize Yesterday! Now I See!

Beranek's book and the big poster of the photos on the 85 Bailey Catalog arrived yesterday.

The big photos on the poster revealed the block cut and small snipe in an easier to understand way for my old eyes. I had been wondering the same thing for years, why the block cut and snipe for redwood falling??

And, Beranek's book has several more photos of this particular redwood and a good description of the work that went into falling it, much more detail than the captions in the 85 Bailey Catalog.

So, as I see it, this is a "stump shot". The high back cut aids in controlling the direction well before the snipe is contacted. And the block cut prevents contact with the snipe until the tree is well past 45 degrees. Photos in the book show much more kickback of the trunk than the photos on the catalog cover, so the back thrust of the topped section was tremendous. And, the block cut with the low snipe and the high backcut all aid in keeping the topped section from sliding back and knocking Jerry off the springboards. This tree had to go into a small drop zone upslope. It was topped as CA Highway 1 (Rockport area) was too close.

The many photos of falling other big redwoods in Beranek's book helped me to understand the mechanics of redwood falling. The use of gunning sticks is shown to get the block cut and the snipe "just right" in order to drop the big redwoods in the prepared lay, or in a small target zone upslope, whatever the situation may be.

Beranek's book "High Climbers and Timber Fallers" deals with the dropping of the big residual and outlaw redwoods that the earlier loggers left because they were too hazardous to fall, both in a safety standpoint and the fact that they could not fall them in a zone that would not break up the tree and destroy the value. Most of the photos in the book cover falling the outlaws and widow makers in the period of 1970's to the 1990's. Needless to saw, dropping these big trees required careful planning, the right equipment, directional pulling with big cats or a yarder, preparing a lay, and topping in many cases when the drop zone was not big enough to take the whole tree due to a road, powerlines, or buildings. There are many interesting stories, several are of what happened when things went wrong and the tree went in the wrong direction.

This book is a must read for those interested in falling big timber. Some of the trees felled are huge, one had a bottom trunk 18 ft by 22 ft. I ordered the book, with the poster, from Bailey's. Jerry Beranek lives in the Fort Bragg CA. area.

I will be driving to the Napa Valley area in a couple of months, think I will drive the coast route, drop in at Fort Bragg, take in the redwood sights and look up Jerry Beranek to let him know how much I enjoyed his book.

 

[smokechase II]

block and snipe stuff

OK. That does it.
I bought the book for my son and now I'm going to have to "borrow" it back.

Thanks for the hints.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

Has anyone read Jerry's Fundamentals...? Alot of this is discussed in there.

 

[Ancient One]

Gotta have it

Was Jerry's Fundamentals written by Jerry Beranek???

Guess I will have to track one down. Looks like a phone call to Fort Bragg in the morning.

Redwood fallers amaze me, nothing like having 100 to 200 tons of wood over your head and your finger on the throttle of a saw, no place to run when it goes over because the terrain is too steep and you are hanging out on a springboard.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

I understand the method, but have never done it. I am Humboldt all the time. If you look at the pictures, you will notice at the face of the notch it is sawed downwards almost like an undercut cut. That simply lets the butt of the tree slide off the stump - rather than jump. That method is used to save out wood - fragile wood like redwood and sugarpine. It lets the butt of the tree slide off the stump creating less impact. It does work.
As far as redwoods - there are some decent ones down by Fort Bragg, but if you want the hooters - stay on 101 and head north. Really big stuff - the biggest are up above Cresent City at Jeremiah Johnson State Park.

 

[smokechase II]

snipes and block cuts

Fishhuntcutwood:

The snipe and block are discussed only briefly on pages 306-308.
Most of these pages are illustrations.

Part of What Mr. Beranek says in his book "The Fundamentals of General Tree Work":{ISBN:0-9654167-1-2 and available from Bailey's above on the sponsor list is:

"THE SNIPE
In many regions, particularly in small trees and second growth timber, the diagonal cut is often referred to as the snipe. However, the true snipe stands on its own merit and is a dynamic element in the falling cut. It's placed after the face cut is opened and cleaned out. It usually entails a minor diagonal cut taken off the lip of the stump, or butt of the tree. It can also occupy a major portion of the work and time in opening and finishing a falling cut. It can give the butt of the tree a square ledge from which to break off rather than breaking off at the natural contour of the stump's edge. This can have a very substantial effect on how a tree breaks off the stump. When it's placed at an angle to the hinge, it can have the effect of a Dutchman and kick the butt of the tree off on the side where it's placed. In this application it’s called the obtuse, or rolling snipe. When it's placed at a steep slope off the front lip of the stump, it can prompt the butt of the tree to drop off.
In face cuts that have a gap at the hinge, (a block notch), the snipe can widen the face and give a tree more room to fall before the face closes. .......
The amount of snipe is often governed by gut feeling rather than any precise formula.......

THE BLOCK-OUT FACE (HUMBOLDT)
....................... (Describes where it is used, a description of it and how to best make one. The only mention of how it functions is; "The use of a snipe is mandatory to widen the face and to give the tree a square ledge on the stump to break off of.")

So Mr. Beranek talks about the function of the snipe when used in conjunction with a block cut. But does not mention what a block cut is used for other than on possibly on page 308 under Early Departure Face he states; "The hinge should be in a pinch since you don't want the effect of a wide face slowing the departure." (This hinge in a pinch refers to a narrow or quick closing face.)

Interestingly, there is no mention of open face cutting in this book that was first published in 1996. Mr. Beranek does mention an ultrawide face (that varies from an open face in that it has a block out apex) and reasons to avoid wide faces at times and does say periodically, "Boring the back cut is strongly recommended."

I am unaware of any discussion of the block face such as is illustrated by the following diagram:

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

Was Jerry's Fundamentals written by Jerry Beranek???

Fundamentals of General Tree Work, by Jerry Beranek, as mentioned above. Great book if you've not looked at it. Everything from timber to blocking down trees in someone's yard.