Fall Or Prune

[JonnyHart]

I'm sure many will agree that when you remove a big tree,the customer says " uhhh... yeah the yard looks so different. " but there is little in our industry as satisfying as a customer looking at their previoulsly hairy tree, hanging all over the roof/pool/garage, all full of dead wood, and that customer saying" uh... wow, it really is a good looking tree." Some people are so happy to have a good job done for a price that was agreed on earlier, because they get screwed left and right by fly by night contractors, not just tree workers, but all aspects of contracting. There is usually somebody who will do the job cheaper, but if your work speaks for itself, referals will get you on the road to a happy retirement. I do so enjoy just cutting a notch and flopping a monster over, but it's trimming that makes you proud.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

same nonsense again?

Originally posted by ROLLACOSTA
if the likes of ISA promote proper tree care i will join untill then ..ill turn monkey

Don't be a :Monkey: yet, RC; you have no cause. See the ISA's www.goodtreecare.com and use the info there to educate customers. One person's voice has little authority, and if he's a contractor then credibility is an issue, but an industry's voice does is louder. If you look hard at what the ISA does and find that their efforts do not match your standards, I encourage you to get involved and raise their efforts to your level.

Go to www.tcia.org and see what they're doing to register businesses before you say the industry does nothing. RJS I'm embarassed to hear such a gifted climber more than a decade my junior proclaim that he's done all he can so now he's got no choice but to be just a hackin' ho. I challenge you to look at the ISA's work before you dis it anymore.

Carl etc are right on; a well-pruned tree is great advertising. Widen your services to include planting associated groundcovers in widened mulch beds, soil and pest management, and you'll be THE guy the neighbors will call for any tree needs.

 

[B.Secord]

Guy, you are correct, there is a lot of info that we are capable of educating the public with, but I believe RJS and RC are stating that they personally are tired of trying to educate the client one- on-one, and the associations, should spend some of our dues on a blanket publis awareness program. (Sorry if I assumed too much)
I have discovered that there are two groups of people that I have to get my mind in the proper state for: LAWYERS & TEACHERS. Pretty much everyone else is open to suggestions, after all if they knew everything, they wouldn"t need us!!!
It also sounds like someone in the great white north got to do some educating/working/and no getting paid, eh Craig

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by B.Secord
the associations, should spend some of our dues on a blanket publis awareness program.

www.goodtreecare is such a program. 16 informational brochures free for the downloading, and dozens of articles that you can send to your local paper tomorrow. After you check out what they do, let them know how you think they could do a better job. They are open to input.

I am not a blind advocate of ISA's approaches. The southern chapter holds its meetings at the most expensive places it can find, which works against us working stiffs and favors the govt and utility expense-account crowd. Their seminars are also tilted to that audience. I got problems with that.

But still, they're a great source of good tree info. I advocate for changes that I think will help the average arborist. In Nashville they did accept a proposal to speak from one guy with sawdust in his pockets, and that Guy had fun doing it. So the door is open to more involvement and input; walk right in!

Standing outside and throwing stones accomplishes nothing.

 

[Nickrosis]

RC and RJS: I think it's already been made clear to you.

We as individuals and as a profession have control over this. You as individuals and we as a profession have control. The moment you give up educating is the moment you've lost. And it's also long after you've lost any credibility with me.

I've personally dedicated hundreds of hours recently to educating the public via newsletters, websites, public speaking engagements, etc. The results are there. Big time. In black and white.

You can shape your customer pool, and I believe you're responsible for the customers you have now. If you educate them, if you prune and preserve versus remove, if you are the professional, customers will come back and will pay for the service. When I've screwed up, I lose credibility with customers. When I'm unprofessional, customers call me on it.

The person in the driver's seat needs to take responsibility for where the car has gone and where it's going. Stop blaming the wind and rain and snow. If you can't drive the car, stay home!

 

[OutOnaLimb]

I had 3 siberian elm that I agreed to trim last week as a sub contractor, when I got to the job site it was obvious that the trees had been topped about 6 years ago, and havnt been touched since. I did crown restoration on two of them, but the last one was almost 50% dead, twisted, gnarly sucker growth. I told the home owner that the tree should probibly be removed and that if I got all the dead out of it it would take me all day and there wouldnt be much of a tree left. The home owner ( who looked like Mr. Magoo with an attitude.) got all bent out of shape wondering who the hell I was because he made the deal with the tree company owner who in turn sub'd me out to do the work. He said " I am paying to have 3 trees trimmed and you have only done 2, I dont care who you are, or how long it is gonna take you, just get it done" Since I work off of a percentage it is not in my best intrest to spend all day taking out dead suckers in an Elm that has been topped. I talked to the tree company owner and explained this to him, He gave me a $100 bonus for going up into that last tree the next morning and spending about 2 hrs taking out the obvious dead. This is not the first time I have had to bite the bullet and trim a tree that would be dead in the next year or so. Some times ya just gotta say, "roger that" suck it up and do a slip shod job, then take the money and run.

Kenn

:Monkey:

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Sounds like you have some issues with the primary contractor. You may need a flat rate before the cut of the net.

The problem I have with hourly is that often I will be called out for a days work an then finnish in less then 8 hours, so I will usually ask how much time they have alloted on the job. After looking at the job i will often offer to do the work for that times value.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by OutOnaLimb
I talked to the tree company owner and explained this to him, He gave me a $100 bonus for going up into that last tree the next morning and spending about 2 hrs taking out the obvious dead.
Smart move; goes to show you that calm and reasoned communication prevents you from doing the wrong thing or getting hurt$$.
This is not the first time I have had to bite the bullet and trim a tree that would be dead in the next year or so.

Can you prove that? Sure, your educated guess may be right, but it may be wrong. Expect a miracle! is one of my company's mottoes. Did the contractor sell any work to the critical part of the tree, below the ground? Have you thought about adding soil work to your sub svcs.?

Not as easy or adventurous as climbing, but roots are just as important to work with as branches, if your goal is to manage the tree.

 

[Nickrosis]

Other industries run into this as well...why patch a road when it's scheduled to be widened in a year. Why repair the roof when it's getting torn down next year.

I think that if the customer is willing to pay for it, it's not a big deal to do the work. Hopefully the customer is aware of the true lifespan of the tree. Many times, though, it's a sentimental tree or the customer has plenty of money.

With growth regulators, who knows, maybe it could come around.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
Tell me how to deal with 20 years of frustration, once you get there.

Boy, after putting in 38 years and feeling the same frustration as you do, I still see no reason to quit. Put in 18 more and then tell me why you are justified in throwing in your crying towel. :alien:

Let's see--2 weeks for calling an anonymous airport worker a Racial Epithet How much for repeatedly calling a working arborist who contributes to his profession a girl?

Thirty days in the hole!!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

It's all in the context Brian. Nothing more.

I do agree that Guy could have used something better, like the prase I substituted.

I have nothing against you but that you refuse to use the restraint that we ask.

Round and round it goes.

 

[rumination]

Rocky,

I like Carl and Nick am young and still full of idealism and the eagerness to educate. At the same time I share your frustration. I drive around Honolulu and sometimes I try not to look at the trees. For 80% of the people here prune=top. I do some side jobs and I have found like you that most folks just do not understand anything about trees, nor do they care about what I know about trees. They just want 30 ft taken off the top.

I wonder if some of your frustration comes from being a contract climber. When I am in charge of a job I have the option of refusing it. I can choose to work for people who care about their trees and are willing to learn about proper tree care. Obviously, not everyone has this luxury, especially contract climbers who have no previous contact with the tree owner and are just called in to be the monkey. Please understand that I am not trying to denigrate your position. You provide valuable skills that many tree companies do not have.

I'm sure you've already tried this, but how about trying to educate the landscape and tree companies you work for? Tell the owner " I'll do this job for free if you'll read Shigo's Tree Pruning and talk about it with me". I know, youthful idealism , but I thought I'd give it a shot.

At any rate, don't give up man! especially not on yourself.

 

[Lumberjack]

Like it was said, I have the right to decline the work, which I do if it is neccessary.

Perhaps why you have such a hard time with educating your clients has something to do with your charming perrsonality?

I am not out to change the world of trees. I am out to make money, which I do. I tell the customers up front that I dont top trees, or spike on trims, gut trees, or use wound paint. If they object then I tell them why I dont do it (hence educating them), and if they still want me to, I decline the job.

Some things, while they are bad for the tree, have to be done. The tree is the customers property. It is called a compromise, the customers come first till a point.

Yes, I am young. Yes I like my job and educating customers. No, I dont cry when I dont get my way with the trees. If you cant take pride in what you do, and then complain about it, then why are you doing it?

Your approach to the customer makes all the difference. If you approach like, "Hey, your a DA for wanting to do this to your tree, you should do this or that." Then yes, they are gonna blow you off. If you take a second to figure out why they want something done, then you can gently educate them. Passive, not Agressive. When you fell that you are loosing the customer, then lighten the mood by changing the subject for a second. I call it behavioral sceince, get a fell for the customer, and keep them interested in what you have to say.

 

[Guy Meilleur]

Originally posted by Lumberjack
If you take a second to figure out why they want something done, then you can gently educate them. Passive, not Agressive.

Boy I wish I knew that when I was your age.

Question #1 when meeting a tree owner: "What are YOUR goals for your tree (yard, landscape, etc.)?"

 

[MasterBlaster]

Whoa! Wheres this thread going?

Rocky, don't fib now. You spelled the whole word, except you used two astericks to substitute the two g's. Guy's wording was WAY more obtuse than your wording.

I LOVE my job! Have ya'll seen my new truck???

 

[geofore]

agreed

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
Carl, you sound so idealistic. Unfortunately, you wrote that post as if you were actually telling somebody something. Nope, the properly pruned tree is the one that nobody would even recognize as being trimmed. It's the raped, gutted tree with all the big 'shiners' that the typical homeowner will notice. Then they say "Boy, somebody did a nice job trimming that tree".

The properly trimmed tree often looks like nothing was done, to the passerby and to the homeowner except the homeowner saw you haul loads of debris out. The trees don't look like billboards advertising, they look like trees in good shape. If you are advertising with the big shiners, are you really doing good tree work? I'll also agree there are lots customers out there that insist on seeing shiners before they think you did any real work on the trees. It's all a matter of how much they know about trees not how much you know. You can try to educate them but leaving a lawn full of shiners to advertise is not the way to advertise good tree care.

 

[rborist1]

:Eye:

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

i dont know if all you guys realy get the picture...i have been armed too the teeth with litrature regarding topping etc ..i have a very informative website pointing out dos and donts regarding correct tree management..also my competeters have informative websites...2 weeks ago i whent to a clients house where they had a semi mature beech tree 100 ft or so from the house..they came out with the usual story my tree is getting too big..oh i said are you concerned about light problems do you think the tree is shadeing too much [im trying too get into there head] oh no they say were worriied it will fall over and do some damage ..by the way the tree is a fantastic tree id have loved it in my garden..also it was about 50 ft high...so anyway i looked over the tree and said you have nothing too fear you have loveley tree in fantastic condition ..and im going too be honest with you not a thing needs doing too your tree now ive basicly wasted my time but well ive been honest..now when itold them this i could see that what i told them was not what they wanted too hear..so i sugested a light crown thin too stop the sail effect and as the clients where in there 60s i thougt this advice may eleviate any fears even though i have given the tree a clean bill of health..ok they said we will think about it ...whent bye the house this week the trees been topped and totaly ruined.ieven left them with isa handouts ..thats the thanks i get for my honest proffesional advice..so next time maybe and i mean maybe i,ll give them just what they want

 

[ROLLACOSTA]

Originally posted by rborist1
It's all in how a person sells. I have no problem whatsoever in selling proper pruning. It's alot easier to sell then one thinks. Last year I was booking 3-4 months in advance and 70% of our work is pruning. I am already booking 1 1/2 months this year and we are just at the beginning of the season (plus we raised our rates by 10%).

im sorry but i dont beleive anyone who says he has no problem selling proper pruning....unless what they call proper pruning differs considerably to what i call proper pruning if you know what i mean

 

[rborist1]

:Eye: